Обсуждение: New archives layout is not an improvement

So I see the new website design has just gone live.  While I don't
have much of an opinion on the front page, I do have to say that
I find the new layout of the mail archive display to be near unusable.
It's gone overboard with whitespace to the point where the headers for
a single message fill my screen almost completely.  Scrolling through
a thread of any length is enough to promote carpal tunnel problems,
never mind being able to read it efficiently.

Could we rethink this?

            regards, tom lane

> On Apr 18, 2018, at 12:16 PM, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
>
> So I see the new website design has just gone live.  While I don't
> have much of an opinion on the front page, I do have to say that
> I find the new layout of the mail archive display to be near unusable.
> It's gone overboard with whitespace to the point where the headers for
> a single message fill my screen almost completely.  Scrolling through
> a thread of any length is enough to promote carpal tunnel problems,
> never mind being able to read it efficiently.
>
> Could we rethink this?

We’re on it. Thanks!

Jonathan

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org> wrote:
>> So I see the new website design has just gone live.  While I don't
>> have much of an opinion on the front page, I do have to say that
>> I find the new layout of the mail archive display to be near unusable.

> We’re on it. Thanks!

Speaking of the archives, it would be nice if they were browsable on a
mobile device without having to scroll horizontally.

It's hard to sensibly display plaintext e-mail that's 80 columns in
width on a mobile device. Maybe some scheme that is better than "use a
smaller font" is possible. For example, perhaps there is some
sophisticated algorithm that can remove newlines without breaking too
much. I understand that there is probably some subtlety that doesn't
occur to me here. It would be nice if we could do better, somehow.

--
Peter Geoghegan

> On Apr 18, 2018, at 4:04 PM, Peter Geoghegan <pg@bowt.ie> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org> wrote:
>>> So I see the new website design has just gone live.  While I don't
>>> have much of an opinion on the front page, I do have to say that
>>> I find the new layout of the mail archive display to be near unusable.
>
>> We’re on it. Thanks!
>
> Speaking of the archives, it would be nice if they were browsable on a
> mobile device without having to scroll horizontally.
>
> It's hard to sensibly display plaintext e-mail that's 80 columns in
> width on a mobile device. Maybe some scheme that is better than "use a
> smaller font" is possible. For example, perhaps there is some
> sophisticated algorithm that can remove newlines without breaking too
> much. I understand that there is probably some subtlety that doesn't
> occur to me here. It would be nice if we could do better, somehow.

Not a bad idea. I don’t know if we can get that out tonight based on how
archives are deployed, but perhaps that can be something we follow-up on.

Of course, if something happens to not be 80 chars there’s only so much we
can do.

Jonathan

Hi Tom,

> On Apr 18, 2018, at 12:16 PM, Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org> wrote:
>
>
>> On Apr 18, 2018, at 12:16 PM, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
>>
>> So I see the new website design has just gone live.  While I don't
>> have much of an opinion on the front page, I do have to say that
>> I find the new layout of the mail archive display to be near unusable.
>> It's gone overboard with whitespace to the point where the headers for
>> a single message fill my screen almost completely.  Scrolling through
>> a thread of any length is enough to promote carpal tunnel problems,
>> never mind being able to read it efficiently.
>>
>> Could we rethink this?
>
> We’re on it. Thanks!

We’ve made a deploy to help with the browsing and reading experiences
that you have mentioned.

We’re looking forward on making it a better experience going forward.

Thanks,

Jonathan

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 1:08 PM, Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org> wrote:
> Not a bad idea. I don’t know if we can get that out tonight based on how
> archives are deployed, but perhaps that can be something we follow-up on.
>
> Of course, if something happens to not be 80 chars there’s only so much we
> can do.

On second thought, that's probably unnecessary. The way that the gmail
app on my phone deals with this is that is simple -- it doesn't. That
is, it simply lets the text wrap, even when it's an e-mail that I
sent, that had the newlines added by gmail itself. (When I save a
draft and look at in the gmail app, the text doesn't wrap, which isn't
something they go to the trouble of trying to preserve once its sent.)

I think that this works fairly well because the quoted text has its
color changed to purple, whereas new text is black. And, while the
font is big enough that wrapping occurs, the font is still still quite
a bit smaller than the new list archive mobile page. This results in
fairly minimal wrapping.

It should be fairly easy and effective to follow the example of the gmail app.

Thanks!
--
Peter Geoghegan

"Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
> We’ve made a deploy to help with the browsing and reading experiences
> that you have mentioned.

This is definitely an improvement, thanks!

One other comment --- it seems like attachments are still eating more
vertical space than I'd like in the thread view.  What do you think of
just losing the large-font "Attachments" line altogether?  The
"Attachment" table heading underneath it is surely enough to convey
the point.

            regards, tom lane

> On Apr 18, 2018, at 4:34 PM, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
>
> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
>> We’ve made a deploy to help with the browsing and reading experiences
>> that you have mentioned.
>
> This is definitely an improvement, thanks!
>
> One other comment --- it seems like attachments are still eating more
> vertical space than I'd like in the thread view.  What do you think of
> just losing the large-font "Attachments" line altogether?  The
> "Attachment" table heading underneath it is surely enough to convey
> the point.

WFM. I’ll work on a patch.

Thanks!

Jonathan

Tom Lane wrote:
> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
> > We’ve made a deploy to help with the browsing and reading experiences
> > that you have mentioned.
> 
> This is definitely an improvement, thanks!

Thanks everyone for working on the new site.  I hope it will serve new
users better than the old site -- particularly those coming from mobile.

As one of the heavy users of the archives, I have four humble
suggestions for that part of our site:

1. In the "flat" view, say
https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/flat/20180401011446.GK11627%40technoir#20180401011446.GK11627@technoir
we now have an horizontal line between header and body; but there is no
line between end of previous body and the following header!  Overall it
gives the wrong impression of what the logical grouping is.  I think it
would be better to put the horizontal line between two emails and lose
the one between header and body.

2. I agree with Tom that the new look of the message headers are much
better than the old ones, but it appears to me there's still too much
space between consecutive lines of the header -- about 80% of a full
line.  Why not reduce that to look like regular single-spacing?

3. Listing the attachments together with the headers, rather than at
the bottom of each email, seems generally more convenient, too.

4. Another point is that we don't really need to display the email
addresses of people listed in From, To, CC fields; they look like just
clutter (plus we're probably feeding the spammers).  How about we lose
them?  So instead of 

 Cc:    Tomas Vondra <tomas(dot)vondra(at)2ndquadrant(dot)com>,Christophe Pettus <xof(at)thebuild(dot)com>,Craig Ringer
<craig(at)2ndQuadrant(dot)com>,ThomasMunro <thomas(dot)munro(at)enterprisedb(dot)com>,Andrew Gierth
<andrew(at)tao11(dot)riddles(dot)org(dot)uk>,RobertHaas <robertmhaas(at)gmail(dot)com>,Anthony Iliopoulos
<ailiop(at)altatus(dot)com>,TomLane <tgl(at)sss(dot)pgh(dot)pa(dot)us>,Catalin Iacob
<iacobcatalin(at)gmail(dot)com>,PostgreSQLHackers <pgsql-hackers(at)postgresql(dot)org>
 

we would have 
 Cc:    Tomas Vondra, Christophe Pettus, Craig Ringer, Thomas Munro, Andrew Gierth, Robert Haas, Anthony Iliopoulos,
TomLane, Catalin Iacob, PostgreSQL Hackers
 

(if we really wanted to keep the email addresses, maybe they could be in
a tooltip on each name instead?)

-- 
Álvaro Herrera                https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

El 18/04/18 a las 19:16, Tom Lane escribió:
> I find the new layout of the mail archive display to be near unusable.
+many.  Having recovered from the initial shock, I have some points in 
addition to what was mentioned upthread:

1. The fixed top bar wastes vertical space, which is scarce on modern 
displays. This is bad for a page that is meant for reading text. On 
desktops, you can just press "Home" on keyboard, so I'd prefer a 
navigation bar that scrolls with content. In addition to this, some 
sites also show a "home" button on the side when you scroll down, and 
pressing this button scrolls all the way up. Another pattern is to hide 
the navigation bar when the user scrolls down, but personally I dislike 
it because it keeps wiggling when you scroll up and down to reread parts 
of the page.

2. On the old search page I could see a fair number of results right 
away. Now I have to scroll to see past the first result.

-- 
Alexander Kuzmenkov
Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com
The Russian Postgres Company

Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> writes:
> 4. Another point is that we don't really need to display the email
> addresses of people listed in From, To, CC fields; they look like just
> clutter (plus we're probably feeding the spammers).  How about we lose
> them?  So instead of 

You'd have to do something about addresses that lack a real-name part,
but perhaps those could just be left as-is.

> (if we really wanted to keep the email addresses, maybe they could be in
> a tooltip on each name instead?)

I think a tooltip would look about the same as inline text so far as
a web scraper is concerned, so if we're trying to be less spammer
friendly then it should be names only.  You can always go to the
"raw message" if you need to pull out someone's address.

            regards, tom lane

On an afterthought, I find the way this transition was handled to be 
quite surprising.

Say, we have a tool that is used by a fair number of people to read the 
Postgres-related discussions. Most commit messages nowadays also link to 
it. And one day it's just changed without prior notice (at least I 
didn't see one) to a version that is clearly far from complete. Surely 
we could at least have the old version live somewhere, while the new one 
is being brought into shape?

-- 

Alexander Kuzmenkov
Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com
The Russian Postgres Company

HI Alvaro,

> On Apr 18, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> Tom Lane wrote:
>> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
>>> We’ve made a deploy to help with the browsing and reading experiences
>>> that you have mentioned.
>>
>> This is definitely an improvement, thanks!
>
> Thanks everyone for working on the new site.  I hope it will serve new
> users better than the old site -- particularly those coming from mobile.

That’s the hope :-) Let’s make sure we make it that way.

> As one of the heavy users of the archives, I have four humble
> suggestions for that part of our site:
>
> 1. In the "flat" view, say
> https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/flat/20180401011446.GK11627%40technoir#20180401011446.GK11627@technoir
> we now have an horizontal line between header and body; but there is no
> line between end of previous body and the following header!  Overall it
> gives the wrong impression of what the logical grouping is.  I think it
> would be better to put the horizontal line between two emails and lose
> the one between header and body.

Heh, so I did have that line before but it was pushing down on the next
message too much for scrolling purposes. However, this is a great
suggestion and I will prepare the patch for it tonight.

> 2. I agree with Tom that the new look of the message headers are much
> better than the old ones, but it appears to me there's still too much
> space between consecutive lines of the header -- about 80% of a full
> line.  Why not reduce that to look like regular single-spacing?

It looks like there is some more wiggle room with this, so I will adjust it so
it’s a bit tighter.

> 3. Listing the attachments together with the headers, rather than at
> the bottom of each email, seems generally more convenient, too.

This is a great suggestion. If others feel this is worthwhile we can add
that in too.  I know that would change the existing workflow for some,
so I want to make sure that’s ok.

> 4. Another point is that we don't really need to display the email
> addresses of people listed in From, To, CC fields; they look like just
> clutter (plus we're probably feeding the spammers).  How about we lose
> them?  So instead of
>
> Cc:    Tomas Vondra <tomas(dot)vondra(at)2ndquadrant(dot)com>,Christophe Pettus <xof(at)thebuild(dot)com>,Craig
Ringer<craig(at)2ndQuadrant(dot)com>,Thomas Munro <thomas(dot)munro(at)enterprisedb(dot)com>,Andrew Gierth
<andrew(at)tao11(dot)riddles(dot)org(dot)uk>,RobertHaas <robertmhaas(at)gmail(dot)com>,Anthony Iliopoulos
<ailiop(at)altatus(dot)com>,TomLane <tgl(at)sss(dot)pgh(dot)pa(dot)us>,Catalin Iacob
<iacobcatalin(at)gmail(dot)com>,PostgreSQLHackers <pgsql-hackers(at)postgresql(dot)org> 
>
> we would have
> Cc:    Tomas Vondra, Christophe Pettus, Craig Ringer, Thomas Munro, Andrew Gierth, Robert Haas, Anthony Iliopoulos,
TomLane, Catalin Iacob, PostgreSQL Hackers 
>
> (if we really wanted to keep the email addresses, maybe they could be in
> a tooltip on each name instead?)

Or (hear me out) given what we know about email and anti-spam technology
today, we could use anchor tags…

I do like the name idea. However given a quick glance at the code, it looks like
we’d have to do some nontrivial post-processing work based on how all of that
is stored.  Now, we already do some nontrivial post-processing work to handle
the email obfuscation as seen above, so perhaps we can put this on the table.

Anyway, to argue the other side of “leave it as is” part of the mail archives is
to see who sent the email and from where.  We could accomplish that with
something like a tool tip (feeling eh about this; I find unless you make a
tooltip obvious people don’t use it) or with the anchor/mailto work, which
has the added benefit of being a URL and in most browsers acts as a tooltip.

In the interim, I’ll work on prepping #1 and #2 so we can get those deployed
sooner rather than later.

Thanks,

Jonathan

"Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
>> On Apr 18, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> wrote:
>> 3. Listing the attachments together with the headers, rather than at
>> the bottom of each email, seems generally more convenient, too.

> This is a great suggestion. If others feel this is worthwhile we can add
> that in too.  I know that would change the existing workflow for some,
> so I want to make sure that’s ok.

FWIW, it seems a bit weird to me, considering that everyone prepares
mail with attachments at the end, and all other mail tools present them
at the end.  I think most folk would be confused.

If we can end up with a display that's more compact overall, maybe it's
worth doing; but I still feel it'd be jarring for most people.

            regards, tom lane

> On Apr 18, 2018, at 10:46 PM, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
>
> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
>>> On Apr 18, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> wrote:
>>> 3. Listing the attachments together with the headers, rather than at
>>> the bottom of each email, seems generally more convenient, too.
>
>> This is a great suggestion. If others feel this is worthwhile we can add
>> that in too.  I know that would change the existing workflow for some,
>> so I want to make sure that’s ok.
>
> FWIW, it seems a bit weird to me, considering that everyone prepares
> mail with attachments at the end, and all other mail tools present them
> at the end.  I think most folk would be confused.
>
> If we can end up with a display that's more compact overall, maybe it's
> worth doing; but I still feel it'd be jarring for most people.

How about this - I do have a pending patch that will shrink the archives
footprint a bit further without changing its location on the page. If that seems
to make things easier for scrolling purposes, then we can leave that for now.

Thinking out loud for the future, perhaps we can find a way to experiment
with a few different interfaces prior to rolling them out to collect feedback
and see if there are improvements we can make like this.

Thanks,

Jonathan

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 10:39:25PM -0400, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> HI Alvaro,
> 
> > On Apr 18, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> wrote:
> > 
> > Tom Lane wrote:
> >> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
> >>> We’ve made a deploy to help with the browsing and reading experiences
> >>> that you have mentioned.
> >> 
> >> This is definitely an improvement, thanks!
> > 
> > Thanks everyone for working on the new site.  I hope it will serve new
> > users better than the old site -- particularly those coming from mobile.
> 
> That’s the hope :-) Let’s make sure we make it that way.

Thank you for fixes.

I have one more suggestion. In old mailing list archive interface you
could see attachment icon in a thread combo box. It was very helpful to
see what messages had attachements. Do you plan to return the icon?

-- 
Arthur Zakirov
Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com
Russian Postgres Company

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 04:34:15PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
> > We’ve made a deploy to help with the browsing and reading experiences
> > that you have mentioned.
> 
> This is definitely an improvement, thanks!

I like the message page density now, but the loss of index page
(e.g. https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-hackers/since/201804181425)
density is still dramatic.  My viewport that formerly fit 43 subject lines now
fits 14.

Also, I miss the distinguishing coloration of visited links.

> On Apr 20, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 04:34:15PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
>>> We’ve made a deploy to help with the browsing and reading experiences
>>> that you have mentioned.
>>
>> This is definitely an improvement, thanks!
>
> I like the message page density now, but the loss of index page
> (e.g. https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-hackers/since/201804181425)
> density is still dramatic.  My viewport that formerly fit 43 subject lines now
> fits 14.

How do you feel about scrolling on this page in a mobile view? I ask because
we may need to balance how many entries appear on desktop vs. mobile,
but before adjusting I’d like to get some feedback on if we need more/less
entries in mobile view as well.

> Also, I miss the distinguishing coloration of visited links.

Noted.

Thanks,

Jonathan

Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> 
> > On Apr 20, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com> wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 04:34:15PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> >> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
> >>> We’ve made a deploy to help with the browsing and reading experiences
> >>> that you have mentioned.
> >> 
> >> This is definitely an improvement, thanks!
> > 
> > I like the message page density now, but the loss of index page
> > (e.g. https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-hackers/since/201804181425)
> > density is still dramatic.  My viewport that formerly fit 43 subject lines now
> > fits 14.
> 
> How do you feel about scrolling on this page in a mobile view? I ask because
> we may need to balance how many entries appear on desktop vs. mobile,
> but before adjusting I’d like to get some feedback on if we need more/less
> entries in mobile view as well.

I looked at the same yesterday and I agree with Noah.  There's too much
vertical space there.

I think the problem of horizontal scrolling in mobile for the archives
(mentioned by Peter G) is so serious, that the archives are just not
usable in mobile at all.  If the archives in mobile are unusable, why
try to cater with minor spacing tweaks?  Adjusting vertical spacing to
help mobile is really a thing too minor -- it needs a major revamp
first, in particular to handle text flow, as Peter suggests.  (I don't
know specifically about using the Gmail algorithm, whatever that is.)

-- 
Álvaro Herrera                https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

Here's something funny about the way quoted-printable encodings are
processed in archives.  I attach two screenshots; notice how the From is
not decoded properly in both cases.  Many names with accents are
displayed just fine, why not these?   There are other examples of this
behavior, including in the subject in a few places.

the messages are
https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/CY1PR16MB04902D3E0DF77861C206CFB2C6F00%40CY1PR16MB0490.namprd16.prod.outlook.com
https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/DM3PR17MB076480E0C6E07C3DA9F861F9A2FD0%40DM3PR17MB0764.namprd17.prod.outlook.com

-- 
Álvaro Herrera                https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 08:40:46AM -0400, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> 
> > On Apr 20, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com> wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 04:34:15PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> >> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
> >>> We’ve made a deploy to help with the browsing and reading experiences
> >>> that you have mentioned.
> >> 
> >> This is definitely an improvement, thanks!
> > 
> > I like the message page density now, but the loss of index page
> > (e.g. https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-hackers/since/201804181425)
> > density is still dramatic.  My viewport that formerly fit 43 subject lines now
> > fits 14.
> 
> How do you feel about scrolling on this page in a mobile view?

(I had never used the archives on mobile, so don't give much weight to my
opinion about the mobile experience.  I have now tried.)  This particular page
could be ~twice as dense before I would start to zoom on a 5" screen.

> On Apr 21, 2018, at 2:46 AM, Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 08:40:46AM -0400, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 20, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 04:34:15PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>>>> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
>>>>> We’ve made a deploy to help with the browsing and reading experiences
>>>>> that you have mentioned.
>>>>
>>>> This is definitely an improvement, thanks!
>>>
>>> I like the message page density now, but the loss of index page
>>> (e.g. https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-hackers/since/201804181425)
>>> density is still dramatic.  My viewport that formerly fit 43 subject lines now
>>> fits 14.
>>
>> How do you feel about scrolling on this page in a mobile view?
>
> (I had never used the archives on mobile, so don't give much weight to my
> opinion about the mobile experience.  I have now tried.)  This particular page
> could be ~twice as dense before I would start to zoom on a 5" screen.

Alright, so a bunch of changes to allow for more “information density” have
been deployed today. Things should be much more usable per above specs
now, but please let me know if you notice anything else.

One thing being worked on separately is how much space the floating navigation
bar takes up, which should also help with how much info is viewable on a given
page.

Jonathan

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 08:19:34PM -0400, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> > On Apr 21, 2018, at 2:46 AM, Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 08:40:46AM -0400, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> >>> On Apr 20, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com> wrote:
> >>> I like the message page density now, but the loss of index page
> >>> (e.g. https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-hackers/since/201804181425)
> >>> density is still dramatic.  My viewport that formerly fit 43 subject lines now
> >>> fits 14.
> >> 
> >> How do you feel about scrolling on this page in a mobile view?
> > 
> > (I had never used the archives on mobile, so don't give much weight to my
> > opinion about the mobile experience.  I have now tried.)  This particular page
> > could be ~twice as dense before I would start to zoom on a 5" screen.
> 
> Alright, so a bunch of changes to allow for more “information density” have
> been deployed today. Things should be much more usable per above specs
> now, but please let me know if you notice anything else.

Density is now 0.75 of the year-2017 density, which works for me.  Thanks.

> One thing being worked on separately is how much space the floating navigation
> bar takes up, which should also help with how much info is viewable on a given
> page.

Similar to that, on Android Chrome with a 5" screen and horizontal
orientation, the "Quick Links" section of almost every page of the site (not
the front page, though) fills the entire first screen.  (I don't use the site
on mobile enough to be harmed personally.)

Jonathan S. Katz wrote:

> So perhaps the fix is as simple as the messages need to be reimported.

Well, that's great news actually.  Maybe I can selectively trigger
reloads to fix the messages that show badly.

Thanks for debugging!

-- 
Álvaro Herrera                https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

> On Apr 21, 2018, at 8:41 PM, Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 08:19:34PM -0400, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
>>> On Apr 21, 2018, at 2:46 AM, Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 08:40:46AM -0400, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
>>>>> On Apr 20, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com> wrote:
>>>>> I like the message page density now, but the loss of index page
>>>>> (e.g. https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-hackers/since/201804181425)
>>>>> density is still dramatic.  My viewport that formerly fit 43 subject lines now
>>>>> fits 14.
>>>>
>>>> How do you feel about scrolling on this page in a mobile view?
>>>
>>> (I had never used the archives on mobile, so don't give much weight to my
>>> opinion about the mobile experience.  I have now tried.)  This particular page
>>> could be ~twice as dense before I would start to zoom on a 5" screen.
>>
>> Alright, so a bunch of changes to allow for more “information density” have
>> been deployed today. Things should be much more usable per above specs
>> now, but please let me know if you notice anything else.
>
> Density is now 0.75 of the year-2017 density, which works for me.  Thanks.
>
>> One thing being worked on separately is how much space the floating navigation
>> bar takes up, which should also help with how much info is viewable on a given
>> page.
>
> Similar to that, on Android Chrome with a 5" screen and horizontal
> orientation, the "Quick Links" section of almost every page of the site (not
> the front page, though) fills the entire first screen.  (I don't use the site
> on mobile enough to be harmed personally.)

Well we do need to pay attention to how it looks in mobile now. Since the change
there is definitely a statistically significant uptick in mobile usage, so all feedback
gelps.

I’m trying to pull some stats on “browser window size” to little avail so far, but I’d
be curious to see how many people read mobile sites with a horizontal orientation.
Based on my data collection spending ample time stuck on the subway, I usually
see people reading things with a vertical view and watching things with a horizontal
one.

So we’ll make a note of that view in case more people are reading with a horizontal
orientation than we believe but for now target other parts of the site, e.g. docs.

Thanks again for all of your feedback,

Jonathan

On 2018-04-18 18:16, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
>> On Apr 18, 2018, at 12:16 PM, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
>> 
>> So I see the new website design has just gone live.


The display of archived messages now removes indenting whitespace.

Even using firefox's  'View' / 'Page Style' / 'No Style' doesn't just 
give the bare message text.

example:
    
https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/3897361c7010c4ac03f358173adbcd60%40xs4all.nl

What looked like:

-- out_20170525_0944.txt
      100 -- pgbench -c 90 -j 8 -T 60 -P 12 -n -- scale 25
       93 -- All is well.
        7 -- Not good.

now looks like

-- out_20170525_0944.txt
100 -- pgbench -c 90 -j 8 -T 60 -P 12 -n -- scale 25
93 -- All is well.
7 -- Not good.


In this example the damage isn't too bad but I think there are and will 
be cases where the indenting really does matter.

Maybe it can be easily fixed?  As far as I am concerned it would already 
be a lot better when browser-'No Style' would better display the 
indented text.


thanks,


Erik Rijkers