Обсуждение: Russian translations

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Russian translations

От
Pavel Luzanov
Дата:
Hello,

We, at postgrespro, finished translation of documentation (9.4 and 9.5).

Now, it available on our site: https://postgrespro.ru/docs

Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation
in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/

--

-----
Pavel Luzanov
Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com
The Russian Postgres Company


Вложения

Re: Russian translations

От
Pavel Luzanov
Дата:

Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs

Now it really patch for git://git.postgresql.org/git/pgweb.git repository.

-----
Pavel Luzanov
Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com
The Russian Postgres Company
On 25.07.2016 13:14, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
Hello,

We, at postgrespro, finished translation of documentation (9.4 and 9.5).

Now, it available on our site: https://postgrespro.ru/docs

Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/




Вложения

Re: Russian translations

От
Stefan Kaltenbrunner
Дата:
On 08/07/2016 12:27 PM, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
> Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation
> in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs
> 
> Now it really patch for git://git.postgresql.org/git/pgweb.git repository.

commited - should show up on the website soon.



Stefan



Re: Russian translations

От
Bruce Momjian
Дата:
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 09:59:53PM +0200, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
> On 08/07/2016 12:27 PM, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
> > Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation
> > in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs
> > 
> > Now it really patch for git://git.postgresql.org/git/pgweb.git repository.
> 
> commited - should show up on the website soon.

Great.  It is exciting to have Russian-language manuals.

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://enterprisedb.com

+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+                     Ancient Roman grave inscription +



Re: Russian translations

От
Pavel Luzanov
Дата:
Stefan, Bruce,

Thanks, it's really great!

-----
Pavel Luzanov
Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com
The Russian Postgres Company

On 10.08.2016 23:47, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 09:59:53PM +0200, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
>> On 08/07/2016 12:27 PM, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
>>> Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation
>>> in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs
>>>
>>> Now it really patch for git://git.postgresql.org/git/pgweb.git repository.
>> commited - should show up on the website soon.
> Great.  It is exciting to have Russian-language manuals.
>




Re: Russian translations

От
Bruce Momjian
Дата:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:29:29AM +0300, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
> Stefan, Bruce,
> 
> Thanks, it's really great!

Yes, this takes Russian adoption of Postgres to a new level!

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://enterprisedb.com

+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+                     Ancient Roman grave inscription +



Re: Russian translations

От
Dave Page
Дата:
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
<stefan@kaltenbrunner.cc> wrote:
> On 08/07/2016 12:27 PM, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
>> Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation
>> in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs
>>
>> Now it really patch for git://git.postgresql.org/git/pgweb.git repository.
>
> commited - should show up on the website soon.

You realise this sets a new precedent in that we're linking to a
commercial website for a translation of our docs? All the existing
ones are non-commercial community sites.

I'm not saying I object to that (I don't, as long as the translation
is good, and similar expectations are held of the site as are held to
those offering packages), but others may feel differently and not
realise what just happened.

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company



Re: Russian translations

От
Magnus Hagander
Дата:


On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
<stefan@kaltenbrunner.cc> wrote:
> On 08/07/2016 12:27 PM, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
>> Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation
>> in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs
>>
>> Now it really patch for git://git.postgresql.org/git/pgweb.git repository.
>
> commited - should show up on the website soon.

You realise this sets a new precedent in that we're linking to a
commercial website for a translation of our docs? All the existing
ones are non-commercial community sites.

I'm not saying I object to that (I don't, as long as the translation
is good, and similar expectations are held of the site as are held to
those offering packages), but others may feel differently and not
realise what just happened.


I also notice that  the first link on the page goes to the postgres pro distribution rather than the community one. And the text on the linked page pitches a sales contact for postgres pro.

I see no major problem having it linked on the postgres pro site (though I would prefer it to be a non-profit site, but it's not that important), but I would ask for a landing-page that we link to that only has the community docs in it directly, and that does not have a sales pitch on it.

Also, if google translate is correct, it specifically says you can't use it for commercial use. Would it be possible to add a clarification of what that means? All our other documentation is freely available for use. Again, there is no problem with it not being that -- but defining what it refers to is probably a good idea (e.g. is it OK to use it by somebody who provides PostgreSQL training in Russian, and just not OK if they want to re-sell it, print it, or something like that, or is that kind of use also covered)? (This might be covered in the Russian text and missed in the translation so if so, just clarify the translation for the list, please).

Thanks!

--

Re: Russian translations

От
Oleg Bartunov
Дата:
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
>> <stefan@kaltenbrunner.cc> wrote:
>> > On 08/07/2016 12:27 PM, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
>> >> Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation
>> >> in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs
>> >>
>> >> Now it really patch for git://git.postgresql.org/git/pgweb.git
>> >> repository.
>> >
>> > commited - should show up on the website soon.
>>
>> You realise this sets a new precedent in that we're linking to a
>> commercial website for a translation of our docs? All the existing
>> ones are non-commercial community sites.
>>
>> I'm not saying I object to that (I don't, as long as the translation
>> is good, and similar expectations are held of the site as are held to
>> those offering packages), but others may feel differently and not
>> realise what just happened.
>
>
>
> I also notice that  the first link on the page goes to the postgres pro
> distribution rather than the community one. And the text on the linked page
> pitches a sales contact for postgres pro.
>
> I see no major problem having it linked on the postgres pro site (though I
> would prefer it to be a non-profit site, but it's not that important), but I
> would ask for a landing-page that we link to that only has the community
> docs in it directly, and that does not have a sales pitch on it.
>
> Also, if google translate is correct, it specifically says you can't use it
> for commercial use. Would it be possible to add a clarification of what that
> means? All our other documentation is freely available for use. Again, there
> is no problem with it not being that -- but defining what it refers to is
> probably a good idea (e.g. is it OK to use it by somebody who provides
> PostgreSQL training in Russian, and just not OK if they want to re-sell it,
> print it, or something like that, or is that kind of use also covered)?
> (This might be covered in the Russian text and missed in the translation so
> if so, just clarify the translation for the list, please).

We all are open to suggestion, let's discuss the requirements to translation.

1. The link should goes to the page with translated community versions
2. That page should be commerce-free and contains links to the
original documentation
3.  All documentation should be provided without any restrictions and
for free. That should be directly stated.

I'd be happy to have link to the other versions of documentation, such
as Postgres Pro, but if community disagree we could live without it.

Did  I missed something ?

>
> Thanks!
>
> --
>  Magnus Hagander
>  Me: http://www.hagander.net/
>  Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/



Re: Russian translations

От
Magnus Hagander
Дата:


On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:06 AM, Oleg Bartunov <obartunov@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
>> <stefan@kaltenbrunner.cc> wrote:
>> > On 08/07/2016 12:27 PM, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
>> >> Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation
>> >> in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs
>> >>
>> >> Now it really patch for git://git.postgresql.org/git/pgweb.git
>> >> repository.
>> >
>> > commited - should show up on the website soon.
>>
>> You realise this sets a new precedent in that we're linking to a
>> commercial website for a translation of our docs? All the existing
>> ones are non-commercial community sites.
>>
>> I'm not saying I object to that (I don't, as long as the translation
>> is good, and similar expectations are held of the site as are held to
>> those offering packages), but others may feel differently and not
>> realise what just happened.
>
>
>
> I also notice that  the first link on the page goes to the postgres pro
> distribution rather than the community one. And the text on the linked page
> pitches a sales contact for postgres pro.
>
> I see no major problem having it linked on the postgres pro site (though I
> would prefer it to be a non-profit site, but it's not that important), but I
> would ask for a landing-page that we link to that only has the community
> docs in it directly, and that does not have a sales pitch on it.
>
> Also, if google translate is correct, it specifically says you can't use it
> for commercial use. Would it be possible to add a clarification of what that
> means? All our other documentation is freely available for use. Again, there
> is no problem with it not being that -- but defining what it refers to is
> probably a good idea (e.g. is it OK to use it by somebody who provides
> PostgreSQL training in Russian, and just not OK if they want to re-sell it,
> print it, or something like that, or is that kind of use also covered)?
> (This might be covered in the Russian text and missed in the translation so
> if so, just clarify the translation for the list, please).

We all are open to suggestion, let's discuss the requirements to translation.

1. The link should goes to the page with translated community versions
2. That page should be commerce-free and contains links to the
original documentation
3.  All documentation should be provided without any restrictions and
for free. That should be directly stated.

I'd be happy to have link to the other versions of documentation, such
as Postgres Pro, but if community disagree we could live without it.

Did  I missed something ?


That sounds great to me. If you can provide that, certainly all of my comments are taken care of.

I see no problem to also link to the Postgres Pro documentation from it, as long as the community one is the one on the page. (That'd be similar to how you can go from our download page -> edb installers download -> in the menus find EDB commercial offerings).

Thanks!
 

--

Re: Russian translations

От
"Ivan E. Panchenko"
Дата:

Dear colleagues,

15.08.2016 12:59, Magnus Hagander пишет:


On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:06 AM, Oleg Bartunov <obartunov@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
>> <stefan@kaltenbrunner.cc> wrote:
>> > On 08/07/2016 12:27 PM, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
>> >> Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation
>> >> in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs
>> >>
>> >> Now it really patch for git://git.postgresql.org/git/pgweb.git
>> >> repository.
>> >
>> > commited - should show up on the website soon.
>>
>> You realise this sets a new precedent in that we're linking to a
>> commercial website for a translation of our docs? All the existing
>> ones are non-commercial community sites.
>>
>> I'm not saying I object to that (I don't, as long as the translation
>> is good, and similar expectations are held of the site as are held to
>> those offering packages), but others may feel differently and not
>> realise what just happened.
>
>
>
> I also notice that  the first link on the page goes to the postgres pro
> distribution rather than the community one. And the text on the linked page
> pitches a sales contact for postgres pro.
>
> I see no major problem having it linked on the postgres pro site (though I
> would prefer it to be a non-profit site, but it's not that important), but I
> would ask for a landing-page that we link to that only has the community
> docs in it directly, and that does not have a sales pitch on it.
>
> Also, if google translate is correct, it specifically says you can't use it
> for commercial use. Would it be possible to add a clarification of what that
> means? All our other documentation is freely available for use. Again, there
> is no problem with it not being that -- but defining what it refers to is
> probably a good idea (e.g. is it OK to use it by somebody who provides
> PostgreSQL training in Russian, and just not OK if they want to re-sell it,
> print it, or something like that, or is that kind of use also covered)?
> (This might be covered in the Russian text and missed in the translation so
> if so, just clarify the translation for the list, please).

We all are open to suggestion, let's discuss the requirements to translation.

1. The link should goes to the page with translated community versions
Something like this: https://postgrespro.ru/docs/postgresql
2. That page should be commerce-free and contains links to the
original documentation
Commerce-free... How free ? We would like to keep some main navigation menu (may be, in a reduced form) with its links about products and services etc.
3.  All documentation should be provided without any restrictions and
for free. That should be directly stated.
Presently, we want to restrict the commercial use of the Russian translation. It means that the text is not BSD-licensed, and cannot be freely included in any commercial products. Magnus, do you consider this acceptable in the sense of your comments?

Regards,
Ivan Panchenko


I'd be happy to have link to the other versions of documentation, such
as Postgres Pro, but if community disagree we could live without it.

Did  I missed something ?


That sounds great to me. If you can provide that, certainly all of my comments are taken care of.

I see no problem to also link to the Postgres Pro documentation from it, as long as the community one is the one on the page. (That'd be similar to how you can go from our download page -> edb installers download -> in the menus find EDB commercial offerings).




Thanks!
 

--

Re: Russian translations

От
Magnus Hagander
Дата:
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Ivan E. Panchenko <i.panchenko@postgrespro.ru> wrote:

Dear colleagues,

15.08.2016 12:59, Magnus Hagander пишет:


On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:06 AM, Oleg Bartunov <obartunov@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
>> <stefan@kaltenbrunner.cc> wrote:
>> > On 08/07/2016 12:27 PM, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
>> >> Please, consider this path to include reference to Russian translation
>> >> in the docs page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs
>> >>
>> >> Now it really patch for git://git.postgresql.org/git/pgweb.git
>> >> repository.
>> >
>> > commited - should show up on the website soon.
>>
>> You realise this sets a new precedent in that we're linking to a
>> commercial website for a translation of our docs? All the existing
>> ones are non-commercial community sites.
>>
>> I'm not saying I object to that (I don't, as long as the translation
>> is good, and similar expectations are held of the site as are held to
>> those offering packages), but others may feel differently and not
>> realise what just happened.
>
>
>
> I also notice that  the first link on the page goes to the postgres pro
> distribution rather than the community one. And the text on the linked page
> pitches a sales contact for postgres pro.
>
> I see no major problem having it linked on the postgres pro site (though I
> would prefer it to be a non-profit site, but it's not that important), but I
> would ask for a landing-page that we link to that only has the community
> docs in it directly, and that does not have a sales pitch on it.
>
> Also, if google translate is correct, it specifically says you can't use it
> for commercial use. Would it be possible to add a clarification of what that
> means? All our other documentation is freely available for use. Again, there
> is no problem with it not being that -- but defining what it refers to is
> probably a good idea (e.g. is it OK to use it by somebody who provides
> PostgreSQL training in Russian, and just not OK if they want to re-sell it,
> print it, or something like that, or is that kind of use also covered)?
> (This might be covered in the Russian text and missed in the translation so
> if so, just clarify the translation for the list, please).

We all are open to suggestion, let's discuss the requirements to translation.

1. The link should goes to the page with translated community versions
Something like this: https://postgrespro.ru/docs/postgresql
2. That page should be commerce-free and contains links to the
original documentation
Commerce-free... How free ? We would like to keep some main navigation menu (may be, in a reduced form) with its links about products and services etc.

I see no problem keeping the navigation menu. If we keep the commercial information off the page itself, having itin the menus is fine (compare to for example the EDB download pages)

 
3.  All documentation should be provided without any restrictions and
for free. That should be directly stated.
Presently, we want to restrict the commercial use of the Russian translation. It means that the text is not BSD-licensed, and cannot be freely included in any commercial products. Magnus, do you consider this acceptable in the sense of your comments?


I don't have a problem with such restrictions, but I think it would be good to clarify what it exactly means.

For example, can a russian speaker use the documentation if he's giving postgresql training? Does it make a difference if he prints the documentation and uses it vs uses it online?

//Magnus
 

Re: Russian translations

От
Bruce Momjian
Дата:
On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 10:53:58AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>     Presently, we want to restrict the commercial use of the Russian
>     translation. It means that the text is not BSD-licensed, and cannot be
>     freely included in any commercial products. Magnus, do you consider this
>     acceptable in the sense of your comments?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have a problem with such restrictions, but I think it would be good to
> clarify what it exactly means.
> 
> For example, can a russian speaker use the documentation if he's giving
> postgresql training? Does it make a difference if he prints the documentation
> and uses it vs uses it online?

Uh, I think we need to step back here.  First, anyone can add a more
restrictive copyright to our docs, even in English, as long as they
retain our copyright notice.

Second, the website has been updated as requested.

However, I don't know what a "commercial purposes" restriction means. 
It is vague for software use, and even vaguer for documentation.

I understand Postgres Pro had to invest resources to do the translation,
and understand their desire to restrict access.  However, I think we
need to be clear on exactly what those restrictions are if we are going
to keep a link from our website.

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://enterprisedb.com

+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+                     Ancient Roman grave inscription +



Re: Russian translations

От
Magnus Hagander
Дата:


On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:09 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 10:53:58AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>     Presently, we want to restrict the commercial use of the Russian
>     translation. It means that the text is not BSD-licensed, and cannot be
>     freely included in any commercial products. Magnus, do you consider this
>     acceptable in the sense of your comments?
>
>
>
> I don't have a problem with such restrictions, but I think it would be good to
> clarify what it exactly means.
>
> For example, can a russian speaker use the documentation if he's giving
> postgresql training? Does it make a difference if he prints the documentation
> and uses it vs uses it online?

Uh, I think we need to step back here.  First, anyone can add a more
restrictive copyright to our docs, even in English, as long as they
retain our copyright notice.

Second, the website has been updated as requested.

However, I don't know what a "commercial purposes" restriction means.
It is vague for software use, and even vaguer for documentation.

I understand Postgres Pro had to invest resources to do the translation,
and understand their desire to restrict access.  However, I think we
need to be clear on exactly what those restrictions are if we are going
to keep a link from our website.


We are not. We are already linking, that part is taken care of. As a general rule I think it'd be good if these things are clarified for visitors there though, but that's independent of us linking to it.

And actually, I think the web changes haven't been made.  We had an example that looks great. Or is it that we should update the link to point to the new suggested url (adding the postgresql suffix)? I sort of lost track of that part, but that should be an easy fix if that's going to be a permanent URL.


--

Re: Russian translations

От
Bruce Momjian
Дата:
On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:12:14PM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>     I understand Postgres Pro had to invest resources to do the translation,
>     and understand their desire to restrict access.  However, I think we
>     need to be clear on exactly what those restrictions are if we are going
>     to keep a link from our website.
> 
> We are not. We are already linking, that part is taken care of. As a general
> rule I think it'd be good if these things are clarified for visitors there
> though, but that's independent of us linking to it.

Really?  We will link to documentation with any license?  I was saying
to _continue_ our linking, we should research this.

> And actually, I think the web changes haven't been made.  We had an example
> that looks great. Or is it that we should update the link to point to the new
> suggested url (adding the postgresql suffix)? I sort of lost track of that
> part, but that should be an easy fix if that's going to be a permanent URL.

I don't know what the old URL looked like.  You are right they have not
updated it --- I saw "PostgreSQL" and thought that was it, but that is
the Russian translation with the restricted lincense, and the "Postgres
Pro" docs must be the docs for the proprietary fork of Postgres that
they created.

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://enterprisedb.com

+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+                     Ancient Roman grave inscription +



Re: Russian translations

От
Magnus Hagander
Дата:


On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:31 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:12:14PM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>     I understand Postgres Pro had to invest resources to do the translation,
>     and understand their desire to restrict access.  However, I think we
>     need to be clear on exactly what those restrictions are if we are going
>     to keep a link from our website.
>
> We are not. We are already linking, that part is taken care of. As a general
> rule I think it'd be good if these things are clarified for visitors there
> though, but that's independent of us linking to it.

Really?  We will link to documentation with any license?  I was saying
to _continue_ our linking, we should research this.

Sorry, re-reading we're saying basically thes same thing.
 
> And actually, I think the web changes haven't been made.  We had an example
> that looks great. Or is it that we should update the link to point to the new
> suggested url (adding the postgresql suffix)? I sort of lost track of that
> part, but that should be an easy fix if that's going to be a permanent URL.

I don't know what the old URL looked like.  You are right they have not
updated it --- I saw "PostgreSQL" and thought that was it, but that is
the Russian translation with the restricted lincense, and the "Postgres
Pro" docs must be the docs for the proprietary fork of Postgres that

Yes. The change with the /postgresql suffix is that postgresql docs are put front and center, and the fork documentation is on a different page.

--

Re: Russian translations

От
Bruce Momjian
Дата:
On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:34:10PM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:31 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote:
> 
>     On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:12:14PM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>     >     I understand Postgres Pro had to invest resources to do the
>     translation,
>     >     and understand their desire to restrict access.  However, I think we
>     >     need to be clear on exactly what those restrictions are if we are
>     going
>     >     to keep a link from our website.
>     >
>     > We are not. We are already linking, that part is taken care of. As a
>     general
>     > rule I think it'd be good if these things are clarified for visitors
>     there
>     > though, but that's independent of us linking to it.
> 
>     Really?  We will link to documentation with any license?  I was saying
>     to _continue_ our linking, we should research this.
> 
> 
> Sorry, re-reading we're saying basically the same thing.

OK, good.  I think we still need license clarification though. For
example, if I am maintaining servers for a company, and I read the
Postgres Pro docs, is that commercial use of the docs?  I have no idea,
and I don't think users will either.  I am not trying to be hard on
Postgres Pro, but I do think we need to know these answers so we can
decide.

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://enterprisedb.com

+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+                     Ancient Roman grave inscription +



Re: Russian translations

От
Stefan Kaltenbrunner
Дата:
On 08/23/2016 10:12 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:09 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us
> <mailto:bruce@momjian.us>> wrote:
> 
>     On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 10:53:58AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>     >     Presently, we want to restrict the commercial use of the Russian
>     >     translation. It means that the text is not BSD-licensed, and cannot be
>     >     freely included in any commercial products. Magnus, do you consider this
>     >     acceptable in the sense of your comments?
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > I don't have a problem with such restrictions, but I think it would be good to
>     > clarify what it exactly means.
>     >
>     > For example, can a russian speaker use the documentation if he's giving
>     > postgresql training? Does it make a difference if he prints the documentation
>     > and uses it vs uses it online?
> 
>     Uh, I think we need to step back here.  First, anyone can add a more
>     restrictive copyright to our docs, even in English, as long as they
>     retain our copyright notice.
> 
>     Second, the website has been updated as requested.
> 
>     However, I don't know what a "commercial purposes" restriction means.
>     It is vague for software use, and even vaguer for documentation.
> 
>     I understand Postgres Pro had to invest resources to do the translation,
>     and understand their desire to restrict access.  However, I think we
>     need to be clear on exactly what those restrictions are if we are going
>     to keep a link from our website.
> 
> 
> We are not. We are already linking, that part is taken care of. As a
> general rule I think it'd be good if these things are clarified for
> visitors there though, but that's independent of us linking to it.

fwiw - as the one who actually commited the change, I did consider the
fact that the linked to website looked a "tad" too commercial but we
link to commercial places all over the place on the website anyway.
In general I'm very glad we have russian translation of the docs and the
better we can make the linked-to page the happier I'm.


> 
> And actually, I think the web changes haven't been made.  We had an
> example that looks great. Or is it that we should update the link to
> point to the new suggested url (adding the postgresql suffix)? I sort of
> lost track of that part, but that should be an easy fix if that's going
> to be a permanent URL.


yeah that would be very good to know.



Stefan




Re: Russian translations

От
"Ivan E. Panchenko"
Дата:
Иван Евгеньевич Панченко
Postgres Professional
the Russian PostgreSQL Company
+79104339846

23.08.2016 23:37, Stefan Kaltenbrunner пишет:
> On 08/23/2016 10:12 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:09 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us
>> <mailto:bruce@momjian.us>> wrote:
>>
>>      On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 10:53:58AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>>      >     Presently, we want to restrict the commercial use of the Russian
>>      >     translation. It means that the text is not BSD-licensed, and cannot be
>>      >     freely included in any commercial products. Magnus, do you consider this
>>      >     acceptable in the sense of your comments?
>>      >
>>      >
>>      >
>>      > I don't have a problem with such restrictions, but I think it would be good to
>>      > clarify what it exactly means.
>>      >
>>      > For example, can a russian speaker use the documentation if he's giving
>>      > postgresql training? Does it make a difference if he prints the documentation
>>      > and uses it vs uses it online?
>>
>>      Uh, I think we need to step back here.  First, anyone can add a more
>>      restrictive copyright to our docs, even in English, as long as they
>>      retain our copyright notice.
>>
>>      Second, the website has been updated as requested.
>>
>>      However, I don't know what a "commercial purposes" restriction means.
>>      It is vague for software use, and even vaguer for documentation.
>>
>>      I understand Postgres Pro had to invest resources to do the translation,
>>      and understand their desire to restrict access.  However, I think we
>>      need to be clear on exactly what those restrictions are if we are going
>>      to keep a link from our website.
>>
>>
>> We are not. We are already linking, that part is taken care of. As a
>> general rule I think it'd be good if these things are clarified for
>> visitors there though, but that's independent of us linking to it.
> fwiw - as the one who actually commited the change, I did consider the
> fact that the linked to website looked a "tad" too commercial but we
> link to commercial places all over the place on the website anyway.
> In general I'm very glad we have russian translation of the docs and the
> better we can make the linked-to page the happier I'm.
>
>
>> And actually, I think the web changes haven't been made.  We had an
>> example that looks great. Or is it that we should update the link to
>> point to the new suggested url (adding the postgresql suffix)? I sort of
>> lost track of that part, but that should be an easy fix if that's going
>> to be a permanent URL.
>
> yeah that would be very good to know.
Please look at https://postgrespro.ru/docs/postgresql . This is the 
correct url for the russian docs translation.
We've made it much less commercial, and I hope now it satisties all the 
community requirements.

Ivan
>
>
>
> Stefan
>
>
>




Re: Russian translations

От
Bruce Momjian
Дата:
On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 01:27:46AM +0300, Ivan Panchenko wrote:
> >>And actually, I think the web changes haven't been made.  We had an
> >>example that looks great. Or is it that we should update the link to
> >>point to the new suggested url (adding the postgresql suffix)? I sort of
> >>lost track of that part, but that should be an easy fix if that's going
> >>to be a permanent URL.
> >
> >yeah that would be very good to know.
> Please look at https://postgrespro.ru/docs/postgresql . This is the correct
> url for the russian docs translation.
> We've made it much less commercial, and I hope now it satisties all the
> community requirements.

OK, the new page has text that is clearer about commercial usage (as
translated by Google):
Russian translation of documents may not be included in any commercialproduct or distributed on commercial terms
withoutthe consent of thePostgres Professional.
 

There are links only to the translated Postgres docs, and no links to
any proprietary software documentation.

Works for me.  Thanks.

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://enterprisedb.com

+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+                     Ancient Roman grave inscription +



Re: Russian translations

От
Justin Clift
Дата:
On 24 Aug 2016, at 01:14, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 01:27:46AM +0300, Ivan Panchenko wrote:
>>>> And actually, I think the web changes haven't been made.  We had an
>>>> example that looks great. Or is it that we should update the link to
>>>> point to the new suggested url (adding the postgresql suffix)? I sort of
>>>> lost track of that part, but that should be an easy fix if that's going
>>>> to be a permanent URL.
>>>
>>> yeah that would be very good to know.
>> Please look at https://postgrespro.ru/docs/postgresql . This is the correct
>> url for the russian docs translation.
>> We've made it much less commercial, and I hope now it satisties all the
>> community requirements.
>
> OK, the new page has text that is clearer about commercial usage (as
> translated by Google):
>
>     Russian translation of documents may not be included in any commercial
>     product or distributed on commercial terms without the consent of the
>     Postgres Professional.

In:
 "... consent of the Postgres Professional".

That "the" probably shouldn't be there. ;)

+ Justin

--
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
- Indira Gandhi




Re: Russian translations

От
Bruce Momjian
Дата:
On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 01:30:09AM +0100, Justin Clift wrote:
> On 24 Aug 2016, at 01:14, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 01:27:46AM +0300, Ivan Panchenko wrote:
> >>>> And actually, I think the web changes haven't been made.  We had an
> >>>> example that looks great. Or is it that we should update the link to
> >>>> point to the new suggested url (adding the postgresql suffix)? I sort of
> >>>> lost track of that part, but that should be an easy fix if that's going
> >>>> to be a permanent URL.
> >>> 
> >>> yeah that would be very good to know.
> >> Please look at https://postgrespro.ru/docs/postgresql . This is the correct
> >> url for the russian docs translation.
> >> We've made it much less commercial, and I hope now it satisties all the
> >> community requirements.
> > 
> > OK, the new page has text that is clearer about commercial usage (as
> > translated by Google):
> > 
> >     Russian translation of documents may not be included in any commercial
> >     product or distributed on commercial terms without the consent of the
> >     Postgres Professional.
> 
> In:
> 
>   "... consent of the Postgres Professional". 
> 
> That "the" probably shouldn't be there. ;)

Well, this is output from Google translate, so I bet the original
Russian is fine.

--  Bruce Momjian  <bruce@momjian.us>        http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB
http://enterprisedb.com

+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+                     Ancient Roman grave inscription +



Re: Russian translations

От
Magnus Hagander
Дата:


On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Ivan E. Panchenko <i.panchenko@postgrespro.ru> wrote:


23.08.2016 23:37, Stefan Kaltenbrunner пишет:

On 08/23/2016 10:12 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:09 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us
<mailto:bruce@momjian.us>> wrote:

     On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 10:53:58AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
     >     Presently, we want to restrict the commercial use of the Russian
     >     translation. It means that the text is not BSD-licensed, and cannot be
     >     freely included in any commercial products. Magnus, do you consider this
     >     acceptable in the sense of your comments?
     >
     >
     >
     > I don't have a problem with such restrictions, but I think it would be good to
     > clarify what it exactly means.
     >
     > For example, can a russian speaker use the documentation if he's giving
     > postgresql training? Does it make a difference if he prints the documentation
     > and uses it vs uses it online?

     Uh, I think we need to step back here.  First, anyone can add a more
     restrictive copyright to our docs, even in English, as long as they
     retain our copyright notice.

     Second, the website has been updated as requested.

     However, I don't know what a "commercial purposes" restriction means.
     It is vague for software use, and even vaguer for documentation.

     I understand Postgres Pro had to invest resources to do the translation,
     and understand their desire to restrict access.  However, I think we
     need to be clear on exactly what those restrictions are if we are going
     to keep a link from our website.


We are not. We are already linking, that part is taken care of. As a
general rule I think it'd be good if these things are clarified for
visitors there though, but that's independent of us linking to it.
fwiw - as the one who actually commited the change, I did consider the
fact that the linked to website looked a "tad" too commercial but we
link to commercial places all over the place on the website anyway.
In general I'm very glad we have russian translation of the docs and the
better we can make the linked-to page the happier I'm.


And actually, I think the web changes haven't been made.  We had an
example that looks great. Or is it that we should update the link to
point to the new suggested url (adding the postgresql suffix)? I sort of
lost track of that part, but that should be an easy fix if that's going
to be a permanent URL.

yeah that would be very good to know.
Please look at https://postgrespro.ru/docs/postgresql . This is the correct url for the russian docs translation.
We've made it much less commercial, and I hope now it satisties all the community requirements.


Hi!

Just to be clear -- should I change the link that's on www.postgresql.org to point to this new URL? Or is it a temporary one just used to show what it could look like?

--

Re: Russian translations

От
"Ivan E. Panchenko"
Дата:
24.08.2016 12:04, Magnus Hagander пишет:


On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Ivan E. Panchenko <i.panchenko@postgrespro.ru> wrote:


23.08.2016 23:37, Stefan Kaltenbrunner пишет:

On 08/23/2016 10:12 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:09 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us
<mailto:bruce@momjian.us>> wrote:

     On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 10:53:58AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
     >     Presently, we want to restrict the commercial use of the Russian
     >     translation. It means that the text is not BSD-licensed, and cannot be
     >     freely included in any commercial products. Magnus, do you consider this
     >     acceptable in the sense of your comments?
     >
     >
     >
     > I don't have a problem with such restrictions, but I think it would be good to
     > clarify what it exactly means.
     >
     > For example, can a russian speaker use the documentation if he's giving
     > postgresql training? Does it make a difference if he prints the documentation
     > and uses it vs uses it online?

     Uh, I think we need to step back here.  First, anyone can add a more
     restrictive copyright to our docs, even in English, as long as they
     retain our copyright notice.

     Second, the website has been updated as requested.

     However, I don't know what a "commercial purposes" restriction means.
     It is vague for software use, and even vaguer for documentation.

     I understand Postgres Pro had to invest resources to do the translation,
     and understand their desire to restrict access.  However, I think we
     need to be clear on exactly what those restrictions are if we are going
     to keep a link from our website.


We are not. We are already linking, that part is taken care of. As a
general rule I think it'd be good if these things are clarified for
visitors there though, but that's independent of us linking to it.
fwiw - as the one who actually commited the change, I did consider the
fact that the linked to website looked a "tad" too commercial but we
link to commercial places all over the place on the website anyway.
In general I'm very glad we have russian translation of the docs and the
better we can make the linked-to page the happier I'm.


And actually, I think the web changes haven't been made.  We had an
example that looks great. Or is it that we should update the link to
point to the new suggested url (adding the postgresql suffix)? I sort of
lost track of that part, but that should be an easy fix if that's going
to be a permanent URL.

yeah that would be very good to know.
Please look at https://postgrespro.ru/docs/postgresql . This is the correct url for the russian docs translation.
We've made it much less commercial, and I hope now it satisties all the community requirements.


Hi!

Just to be clear -- should I change the link that's on www.postgresql.org to point to this new URL? Or is it a temporary one just used to show what it could look like?
Hi Magnus,

The URL is permanent, please change the link at www.postgresql.org .

Ivan Panchenko

--

Re: Russian translations

От
Peter Eisentraut
Дата:
On 8/23/16 4:36 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> OK, good.  I think we still need license clarification though. For
> example, if I am maintaining servers for a company, and I read the
> Postgres Pro docs, is that commercial use of the docs?  I have no idea,
> and I don't think users will either.  I am not trying to be hard on
> Postgres Pro, but I do think we need to know these answers so we can
> decide.

In the future, perhaps using an appropriate Creative Commons license
would help clarify things.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut              http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services



Re: Russian translations

От
Magnus Hagander
Дата:


On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:44 AM, Ivan E. Panchenko <i.panchenko@postgrespro.ru> wrote:
24.08.2016 12:04, Magnus Hagander пишет:



On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Ivan E. Panchenko <i.panchenko@postgrespro.ru> wrote:


23.08.2016 23:37, Stefan Kaltenbrunner пишет:

On 08/23/2016 10:12 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:09 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us
<mailto:bruce@momjian.us>> wrote:

     On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 10:53:58AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
     >     Presently, we want to restrict the commercial use of the Russian
     >     translation. It means that the text is not BSD-licensed, and cannot be
     >     freely included in any commercial products. Magnus, do you consider this
     >     acceptable in the sense of your comments?
     >
     >
     >
     > I don't have a problem with such restrictions, but I think it would be good to
     > clarify what it exactly means.
     >
     > For example, can a russian speaker use the documentation if he's giving
     > postgresql training? Does it make a difference if he prints the documentation
     > and uses it vs uses it online?

     Uh, I think we need to step back here.  First, anyone can add a more
     restrictive copyright to our docs, even in English, as long as they
     retain our copyright notice.

     Second, the website has been updated as requested.

     However, I don't know what a "commercial purposes" restriction means.
     It is vague for software use, and even vaguer for documentation.

     I understand Postgres Pro had to invest resources to do the translation,
     and understand their desire to restrict access.  However, I think we
     need to be clear on exactly what those restrictions are if we are going
     to keep a link from our website.


We are not. We are already linking, that part is taken care of. As a
general rule I think it'd be good if these things are clarified for
visitors there though, but that's independent of us linking to it.
fwiw - as the one who actually commited the change, I did consider the
fact that the linked to website looked a "tad" too commercial but we
link to commercial places all over the place on the website anyway.
In general I'm very glad we have russian translation of the docs and the
better we can make the linked-to page the happier I'm.


And actually, I think the web changes haven't been made.  We had an
example that looks great. Or is it that we should update the link to
point to the new suggested url (adding the postgresql suffix)? I sort of
lost track of that part, but that should be an easy fix if that's going
to be a permanent URL.

yeah that would be very good to know.
Please look at https://postgrespro.ru/docs/postgresql . This is the correct url for the russian docs translation.
We've made it much less commercial, and I hope now it satisties all the community requirements.


Hi!

Just to be clear -- should I change the link that's on www.postgresql.org to point to this new URL? Or is it a temporary one just used to show what it could look like?
Hi Magnus,

The URL is permanent, please change the link at www.postgresql.org .

Thanks! I've updated the site, it'll go live on the next refresh.
 
--

Re: Russian translations

От
Pavel Luzanov
Дата:
On 24.08.2016 16:01, Magnus Hagander wrote:

Thanks! I've updated the site, it'll go live on the next refresh.
 

Magnus,
There is one more place to change.
I add a patch for your convinence.
-----
Pavel Luzanov
Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com
The Russian Postgres Company

Вложения

Re: Russian translations

От
Pavel Luzanov
Дата:
On 29.08.2016 10:57, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
On 24.08.2016 16:01, Magnus Hagander wrote:

Thanks! I've updated the site, it'll go live on the next refresh.
 

Magnus,
There is one more place to change.
I add a patch for your convinence.

We still have different links to Russian documentation.
Please, consider this patch to apply.

-----
Pavel Luzanov
Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com
The Russian Postgres Company

Вложения

Re: Russian translations

От
Magnus Hagander
Дата:
On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 7:06 PM, Pavel Luzanov <p.luzanov@postgrespro.ru> wrote:
On 29.08.2016 10:57, Pavel Luzanov wrote:
On 24.08.2016 16:01, Magnus Hagander wrote:

Thanks! I've updated the site, it'll go live on the next refresh.
 

Magnus,
There is one more place to change.
I add a patch for your convinence.

We still have different links to Russian documentation.
Please, consider this patch to apply.

Sorry, I completely missed your first email. Thanks for the reminder, applied and pushed and will show up on the next update. 

--

Re: Russian translations

От
Pavel Luzanov
Дата:
On 08.09.2016 20:12, Magnus Hagander wrote:
... Thanks for the reminder, applied and pushed and will show up on the next update. 

--

Thanks. Now all in place.

-----
Pavel Luzanov
Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com
The Russian Postgres Company