Обсуждение: possible copyright infringement against postgresql writers, bloggers, and advocates

Guys,

What started out as a bit of diversion has ballooned into a hunt for what could be construed as copyright infringement.

This site, www.sswug.org, declares that it is "The Largest Independent SQL Server Help Resource On The Net". At first
blushit appears to have datamined articles and documentation that includes, among others, the PostgreSQL and FreeBSD
communitiesand many, many articles from Oreilly's own website. It seems that the only way you can access those articles
ispurchasing a subscription access using your credit card.  

Here's the response from the person who controls the site after recieving a request to remove the material:

> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:20:01 -0700
> From: Stephen Wynkoop <swynk@sswug.org>
> To: 'Dru' <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca>
> Cc: tribich@ittoolbox.com
> Subject: RE: please remove copyrighted material
>
> Hello!
>
> Thanks for writing - we're not hosting the content on SSWUG at all.  Just a
> short summary and then pointing them to your site, promoting your article.
> It's a service we provide for members on the site - making sure they know
> about great content and then sending them to the right sites.  We also
> indicate that it's external content on the summary, and outline this in our
> terms of service on the site.
>
> Hope this helps explain.  I am an author as well, I would never republish
> content. :)
>
> Let me know if you'd like an account activated so you can see how it works
> - but rest-assured, it's not hosted on our site, just pointed to on your
> site. For example, these two articles send people to:

I found this link that says he pays for contributions from authors:
http://www.sswug.org/columnists/editorial.asp?wdb=09/27/2006&id=38

So what's going on? Personally, I don't mind if somebody posts a reference to an article but charging money while the
authordoesn't see a penny of it? 

FYI: I used the google option "site:www.sswug.org ...." to see who from the postgres community is referenced:

Josh Berkus: 240 hits
Andrew Dunstan: 183 hits
Drake: 5 hits
Dan Langille: 1 hit
Bruce Momjian: 31 hits
Elein Mustain: 2 hits

OTHER HITS:
postgresql: 1100 hits
Dru Lavigne (freebsd): 133 hits

The BSD license allows this.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Bernier wrote:
> Guys,
>
> What started out as a bit of diversion has ballooned into a hunt for what could be construed as copyright
infringement.
>
> This site, www.sswug.org, declares that it is "The Largest Independent SQL Server Help Resource On The Net". At first
blushit appears to have datamined articles and documentation that includes, among others, the PostgreSQL and FreeBSD
communitiesand many, many articles from Oreilly's own website. It seems that the only way you can access those articles
ispurchasing a subscription access using your credit card.  
>
> Here's the response from the person who controls the site after recieving a request to remove the material:
>
> > Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:20:01 -0700
> > From: Stephen Wynkoop <swynk@sswug.org>
> > To: 'Dru' <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca>
> > Cc: tribich@ittoolbox.com
> > Subject: RE: please remove copyrighted material
> >
> > Hello!
> >
> > Thanks for writing - we're not hosting the content on SSWUG at all. ?Just a
> > short summary and then pointing them to your site, promoting your article.
> > It's a service we provide for members on the site - making sure they know
> > about great content and then sending them to the right sites. ?We also
> > indicate that it's external content on the summary, and outline this in our
> > terms of service on the site.
> >
> > Hope this helps explain. ?I am an author as well, I would never republish
> > content. :)
> >
> > Let me know if you'd like an account activated so you can see how it works
> > - but rest-assured, it's not hosted on our site, just pointed to on your
> > site. For example, these two articles send people to:
>
> I found this link that says he pays for contributions from authors:
> http://www.sswug.org/columnists/editorial.asp?wdb=09/27/2006&id=38
>
> So what's going on? Personally, I don't mind if somebody posts a reference to an article but charging money while the
authordoesn't see a penny of it? 
>
> FYI: I used the google option "site:www.sswug.org ...." to see who from the postgres community is referenced:
>
> Josh Berkus: 240 hits
> Andrew Dunstan: 183 hits
> Drake: 5 hits
> Dan Langille: 1 hit
> Bruce Momjian: 31 hits
> Elein Mustain: 2 hits
>
> OTHER HITS:
> postgresql: 1100 hits
> Dru Lavigne (freebsd): 133 hits
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

--
  Bruce Momjian   bruce@momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB    http://www.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

On Saturday 20 January 2007 15:03, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> The BSD license allows this.

I'm not talking about source code: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement



> Robert Bernier wrote:
> > Guys,
> >
> > What started out as a bit of diversion has ballooned into a hunt for what could be construed as copyright
infringement.
> >
> > This site, www.sswug.org, declares that it is "The Largest Independent SQL Server Help Resource On The Net". At
firstblush it appears to have datamined articles and documentation that includes, among others, the PostgreSQL and
FreeBSDcommunities and many, many articles from Oreilly's own website. It seems that the only way you can access those
articlesis purchasing a subscription access using your credit card.  
> >
> > Here's the response from the person who controls the site after recieving a request to remove the material:
> >
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:20:01 -0700
> > > From: Stephen Wynkoop <swynk@sswug.org>
> > > To: 'Dru' <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca>
> > > Cc: tribich@ittoolbox.com
> > > Subject: RE: please remove copyrighted material
> > >
> > > Hello!
> > >
> > > Thanks for writing - we're not hosting the content on SSWUG at all. ?Just a
> > > short summary and then pointing them to your site, promoting your article.
> > > It's a service we provide for members on the site - making sure they know
> > > about great content and then sending them to the right sites. ?We also
> > > indicate that it's external content on the summary, and outline this in our
> > > terms of service on the site.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps explain. ?I am an author as well, I would never republish
> > > content. :)
> > >
> > > Let me know if you'd like an account activated so you can see how it works
> > > - but rest-assured, it's not hosted on our site, just pointed to on your
> > > site. For example, these two articles send people to:
> >
> > I found this link that says he pays for contributions from authors:
> > http://www.sswug.org/columnists/editorial.asp?wdb=09/27/2006&id=38
> >
> > So what's going on? Personally, I don't mind if somebody posts a reference to an article but charging money while
theauthor doesn't see a penny of it? 
> >
> > FYI: I used the google option "site:www.sswug.org ...." to see who from the postgres community is referenced:
> >
> > Josh Berkus: 240 hits
> > Andrew Dunstan: 183 hits
> > Drake: 5 hits
> > Dan Langille: 1 hit
> > Bruce Momjian: 31 hits
> > Elein Mustain: 2 hits
> >
> > OTHER HITS:
> > postgresql: 1100 hits
> > Dru Lavigne (freebsd): 133 hits
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

Robert Bernier wrote:
> On Saturday 20 January 2007 15:03, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> > The BSD license allows this.
>
> I'm not talking about source code: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

I assume our documentation and all our postings are BSD-licensed too.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


>
>
>
> > Robert Bernier wrote:
> > > Guys,
> > >
> > > What started out as a bit of diversion has ballooned into a hunt for what could be construed as copyright
infringement.
> > >
> > > This site, www.sswug.org, declares that it is "The Largest Independent SQL Server Help Resource On The Net". At
firstblush it appears to have datamined articles and documentation that includes, among others, the PostgreSQL and
FreeBSDcommunities and many, many articles from Oreilly's own website. It seems that the only way you can access those
articlesis purchasing a subscription access using your credit card.  
> > >
> > > Here's the response from the person who controls the site after recieving a request to remove the material:
> > >
> > > > Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:20:01 -0700
> > > > From: Stephen Wynkoop <swynk@sswug.org>
> > > > To: 'Dru' <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca>
> > > > Cc: tribich@ittoolbox.com
> > > > Subject: RE: please remove copyrighted material
> > > >
> > > > Hello!
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for writing - we're not hosting the content on SSWUG at all. ?Just a
> > > > short summary and then pointing them to your site, promoting your article.
> > > > It's a service we provide for members on the site - making sure they know
> > > > about great content and then sending them to the right sites. ?We also
> > > > indicate that it's external content on the summary, and outline this in our
> > > > terms of service on the site.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this helps explain. ?I am an author as well, I would never republish
> > > > content. :)
> > > >
> > > > Let me know if you'd like an account activated so you can see how it works
> > > > - but rest-assured, it's not hosted on our site, just pointed to on your
> > > > site. For example, these two articles send people to:
> > >
> > > I found this link that says he pays for contributions from authors:
> > > http://www.sswug.org/columnists/editorial.asp?wdb=09/27/2006&id=38
> > >
> > > So what's going on? Personally, I don't mind if somebody posts a reference to an article but charging money while
theauthor doesn't see a penny of it? 
> > >
> > > FYI: I used the google option "site:www.sswug.org ...." to see who from the postgres community is referenced:
> > >
> > > Josh Berkus: 240 hits
> > > Andrew Dunstan: 183 hits
> > > Drake: 5 hits
> > > Dan Langille: 1 hit
> > > Bruce Momjian: 31 hits
> > > Elein Mustain: 2 hits
> > >
> > > OTHER HITS:
> > > postgresql: 1100 hits
> > > Dru Lavigne (freebsd): 133 hits
> > >
> > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
> >

--
  Bruce Momjian   bruce@momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB    http://www.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

On Saturday 20 January 2007 15:40, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Robert Bernier wrote:
> > On Saturday 20 January 2007 15:03, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > >
> > > The BSD license allows this.
> >
> > I'm not talking about source code: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement
>
> I assume our documentation and all our postings are BSD-licensed too.

Ah, I understand where you're going. Not necesarily, I'm refering to articles that have been posted on websites for
profit.The website I speak of datamines as many copyrighted articles it can find off the internet and not just
referencedocumentation. Dru's articles, for instance, have definitely not been BSD licensed and O'Reilly certaintly
doesn'tdo that i.e. somebody is making money from other people's work. 

It's like I printed a few thousand copies of your PostgreSQL book (is it BSD licensed?)  and kept the profits for
myselfwithout giving you any royalties? 

Robert Bernier wrote:
> On Saturday 20 January 2007 15:40, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Robert Bernier wrote:
> > > On Saturday 20 January 2007 15:03, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The BSD license allows this.
> > >
> > > I'm not talking about source code: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement
> >
> > I assume our documentation and all our postings are BSD-licensed too.
>
> Ah, I understand where you're going. Not necesarily, I'm refering to
> articles that have been posted on websites for profit. The website I
> speak of datamines as many copyrighted articles it can find off the
> internet and not just reference documentation. Dru's articles, for
> instance, have definitely not been BSD licensed and O'Reilly certaintly
> doesn't do that i.e. somebody is making money from other people's work.
>
> It's like I printed a few thousand copies of your PostgreSQL book (is
> it BSD licensed?)  and kept the profits for myself without giving you
> any royalties?

True, but this isn't a community issue because the community resources
are BSD licensed.

--
  Bruce Momjian   bruce@momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB    http://www.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

On Saturday 20 January 2007 15:59, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > I assume our documentation and all our postings are BSD-licensed too.
> >
> > Ah, I understand where you're going. Not necesarily, I'm refering to
> > articles that have been posted on websites for profit. The website I
> > speak of datamines as many copyrighted articles it can find off the
> > internet and not just reference documentation. Dru's articles, for
> > instance, have definitely not been BSD licensed and O'Reilly certaintly
> > doesn't do that i.e. somebody is making money from other people's work.
> >
> > It's like I printed a few thousand copies of your PostgreSQL book (is
> > it BSD licensed?)  and kept the profits for myself without giving you
> > any royalties?
>
> True, but this isn't a community issue because the community resources
> are BSD licensed.


I disagree. If individuals are being attacked then what's the point of a community?

On Saturday 20 January 2007 16:09, Robert Bernier wrote:
> On Saturday 20 January 2007 15:59, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > > I assume our documentation and all our postings are BSD-licensed too.
> > >
> > > Ah, I understand where you're going. Not necesarily, I'm refering to
> > > articles that have been posted on websites for profit. The website I
> > > speak of datamines as many copyrighted articles it can find off the
> > > internet and not just reference documentation. Dru's articles, for
> > > instance, have definitely not been BSD licensed and O'Reilly certaintly
> > > doesn't do that i.e. somebody is making money from other people's work.
> > >
> > > It's like I printed a few thousand copies of your PostgreSQL book (is
> > > it BSD licensed?)  and kept the profits for myself without giving you
> > > any royalties?
> >

No, it's more like you kept small portions of each chapter on a website with
links to the book and then charged people to search your site.

> > True, but this isn't a community issue because the community resources
> > are BSD licensed.
>
> I disagree. If individuals are being attacked then what's the point of a
> community?

O'Rielly is aware of this website and hasn't done anything in at least a year;
if they don't feel it is worth persuing, I don't think we should spend much
effort on it.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Hi Robert:

If the site does not host the articles themselves, but simply
summarizes an article and points to the article in its freely
available location on the Web, that sounds like a case of fair use
(known as "fair dealing" in Canada). Compare it to the New York Times
Book Review; the NYTBR is also a service you pay for (as part of the
Sunday edition), that summarizes books, even quotes passages from the
books, without funneling any money back to the authors of those books.

I am not a lawyer, but I am a librarian, so I do have to understand a
fair bit about copyright. From the guy's explanation, and a quick peek
around the sswug.org site, it seems like there is no copyright
infringement taking place; the site may appear to misrepresent the
services it actually offers (it's hard to tell before you sign up as a
member that the site is not actually the publisher of most of the
information) but that's not a copyright issue.

Dan

On 20/01/07, Robert Bernier <robert.bernier5@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Guys,
>
> What started out as a bit of diversion has ballooned into a hunt for what could be construed as copyright
infringement.
>
> This site, www.sswug.org, declares that it is "The Largest Independent SQL Server Help Resource On The Net". At first
blushit appears to have datamined articles and documentation that includes, among others, the PostgreSQL and FreeBSD
communitiesand many, many articles from Oreilly's own website. It seems that the only way you can access those articles
ispurchasing a subscription access using your credit card. 
>
> Here's the response from the person who controls the site after recieving a request to remove the material:
>
> > Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:20:01 -0700
> > From: Stephen Wynkoop <swynk@sswug.org>
> > To: 'Dru' <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca>
> > Cc: tribich@ittoolbox.com
> > Subject: RE: please remove copyrighted material
> >
> > Hello!
> >
> > Thanks for writing - we're not hosting the content on SSWUG at all. Just a
> > short summary and then pointing them to your site, promoting your article.
> > It's a service we provide for members on the site - making sure they know
> > about great content and then sending them to the right sites. We also
> > indicate that it's external content on the summary, and outline this in our
> > terms of service on the site.
> >
> > Hope this helps explain. I am an author as well, I would never republish
> > content. :)
> >
> > Let me know if you'd like an account activated so you can see how it works
> > - but rest-assured, it's not hosted on our site, just pointed to on your
> > site. For example, these two articles send people to:
>
> I found this link that says he pays for contributions from authors:
> http://www.sswug.org/columnists/editorial.asp?wdb=09/27/2006&id=38
>
> So what's going on? Personally, I don't mind if somebody posts a reference to an article but charging money while the
authordoesn't see a penny of it? 
>
> FYI: I used the google option "site:www.sswug.org ...." to see who from the postgres community is referenced:
>
> Josh Berkus: 240 hits
> Andrew Dunstan: 183 hits
> Drake: 5 hits
> Dan Langille: 1 hit
> Bruce Momjian: 31 hits
> Elein Mustain: 2 hits
>
> OTHER HITS:
> postgresql: 1100 hits
> Dru Lavigne (freebsd): 133 hits
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

>> Hope this helps explain.  I am an author as well, I would never republish
>> content. :)
>>
>> Let me know if you'd like an account activated so you can see how it works
>> - but rest-assured, it's not hosted on our site, just pointed to on your
>> site. For example, these two articles send people to:
>
> I found this link that says he pays for contributions from authors:
> http://www.sswug.org/columnists/editorial.asp?wdb=09/27/2006&id=38
>
> So what's going on? Personally, I don't mind if somebody posts a reference to an article but charging money while the
authordoesn't see a penny of it? 

They are charging for access to their portal. If you (not the literal
you) are too lazy to go through google to find the information, why not
let them charge? They went through all the hard work to categorizing the
information, they deserve the money people are willing to pay.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



--

      === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
             http://www.commandprompt.com/

Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

On Saturday 20 January 2007 19:31, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >> Hope this helps explain.  I am an author as well, I would never
> >> republish content. :)
> >>
> >> Let me know if you'd like an account activated so you can see how it
> >> works - but rest-assured, it's not hosted on our site, just pointed to
> >> on your site. For example, these two articles send people to:
> >
> > I found this link that says he pays for contributions from authors:
> > http://www.sswug.org/columnists/editorial.asp?wdb=09/27/2006&id=38
> >
> > So what's going on? Personally, I don't mind if somebody posts a
> > reference to an article but charging money while the author doesn't see a
> > penny of it?
>
> They are charging for access to their portal. If you (not the literal
> you) are too lazy to go through google to find the information, why not
> let them charge? They went through all the hard work to categorizing the
> information, they deserve the money people are willing to pay.
>

Well now, let's not start hoisting them up as business of the year... the
majority of thier traffic comes from people searching google who think they
find solutions, only to find out they have to pay, only to find out they paid
for nothing more than a hyperlink that they probably would have found if this
site didnt get in the way of thier google searching.  (Yeah, that's
speculation, but from what I have seen that's how it works, and I've known
about them for quite some time)

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

>>> So what's going on? Personally, I don't mind if somebody posts a
>>> reference to an article but charging money while the author doesn't see a
>>> penny of it?
>> They are charging for access to their portal. If you (not the literal
>> you) are too lazy to go through google to find the information, why not
>> let them charge? They went through all the hard work to categorizing the
>> information, they deserve the money people are willing to pay.
>>
>
> Well now, let's not start hoisting them up as business of the year... the
> majority of thier traffic comes from people searching google who think they

Nobody is hoisting them. I just don't see a problem with what they are
doing.

Joshua D. Drake



--

      === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
             http://www.commandprompt.com/

Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

Hi Dan,

Two things:

1. When people write for a living it means everything controlling their own creative works i.e. copyright

2. From a legal standpoint, the site is in the wrong. I refer you to the following three links:
http://www.llrx.com/features/bloggersbeware.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act
http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/copyright-ruling-puts-linking-on-notice/2006/12/19/1166290520771.html

I started this thread because there are people in the postgres community who are being robbed and I think they should
knowabout it. Whether they choose to do something is entirely up to them. As for those who don't think it's an issue
forthemselves, just wait ... it will ... sooner or later. 


On Saturday 20 January 2007 19:06, Dan Scott wrote:
> Hi Robert:
>
> If the site does not host the articles themselves, but simply
> summarizes an article and points to the article in its freely
> available location on the Web, that sounds like a case of fair use
> (known as "fair dealing" in Canada). Compare it to the New York Times
> Book Review; the NYTBR is also a service you pay for (as part of the
> Sunday edition), that summarizes books, even quotes passages from the
> books, without funneling any money back to the authors of those books.
>
> I am not a lawyer, but I am a librarian, so I do have to understand a
> fair bit about copyright. From the guy's explanation, and a quick peek
> around the sswug.org site, it seems like there is no copyright
> infringement taking place; the site may appear to misrepresent the
> services it actually offers (it's hard to tell before you sign up as a
> member that the site is not actually the publisher of most of the
> information) but that's not a copyright issue.
>
> Dan
>
> On 20/01/07, Robert Bernier <robert.bernier5@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > Guys,
> >
> > What started out as a bit of diversion has ballooned into a hunt for what could be construed as copyright
infringement.
> >
> > This site, www.sswug.org, declares that it is "The Largest Independent SQL Server Help Resource On The Net". At
firstblush it appears to have datamined articles and documentation that includes, among others, the PostgreSQL and
FreeBSDcommunities and many, many articles from Oreilly's own website. It seems that the only way you can access those
articlesis purchasing a subscription access using your credit card. 
> >
> > Here's the response from the person who controls the site after recieving a request to remove the material:
> >
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:20:01 -0700
> > > From: Stephen Wynkoop <swynk@sswug.org>
> > > To: 'Dru' <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca>
> > > Cc: tribich@ittoolbox.com
> > > Subject: RE: please remove copyrighted material
> > >
> > > Hello!
> > >
> > > Thanks for writing - we're not hosting the content on SSWUG at all. Just a
> > > short summary and then pointing them to your site, promoting your article.
> > > It's a service we provide for members on the site - making sure they know
> > > about great content and then sending them to the right sites. We also
> > > indicate that it's external content on the summary, and outline this in our
> > > terms of service on the site.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps explain. I am an author as well, I would never republish
> > > content. :)
> > >
> > > Let me know if you'd like an account activated so you can see how it works
> > > - but rest-assured, it's not hosted on our site, just pointed to on your
> > > site. For example, these two articles send people to:
> >
> > I found this link that says he pays for contributions from authors:
> > http://www.sswug.org/columnists/editorial.asp?wdb=09/27/2006&id=38
> >
> > So what's going on? Personally, I don't mind if somebody posts a reference to an article but charging money while
theauthor doesn't see a penny of it? 
> >
> > FYI: I used the google option "site:www.sswug.org ...." to see who from the postgres community is referenced:
> >
> > Josh Berkus: 240 hits
> > Andrew Dunstan: 183 hits
> > Drake: 5 hits
> > Dan Langille: 1 hit
> > Bruce Momjian: 31 hits
> > Elein Mustain: 2 hits
> >
> > OTHER HITS:
> > postgresql: 1100 hits
> > Dru Lavigne (freebsd): 133 hits
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
> >
>
>

Robert, sswug.org provides links to the creative works of others. It
does not claim to be the author of those works, nor does it claim to
be the publisher of those works (although one could easily form that
impression, which is where I suspect most of your concern lies). SoI
don't think that it is violating copyright, unless the links to
articles published elsewhere that sswug.org paid members follow end up
getting framed in an <iframe>, wrapped in sswug.org ads, and make it
appear as though sswug.org is the publisher of those articles. I'm not
planning on paying for a sswug.org membership to find out.

As an author, I do have personal experience with the DMCA. I recently
launched a DMCA takedown action when one of my works was infringed
upon (my text was copied from a blog post and republished
word-for-word on a different site without attribution).

What you're arguing against, however, is essentially no different from
a search engine providing abstracts and links to the same articles to
which sswug.org is summarizing and linking. The search engine also
profits from the work of others through advertising, data-mining of
search patterns, etc, yet it is seen as an essential thread in the
fabric of the Web.

I am _not_ saying that I like what sswug.org is doing. I'm just saying
that there has to be a very clear case of willful copyright
infringement before any further action is taken.

As an aside: I doubt that too many potential PostgreSQL users would
take the site seriously, as the platform categories for the site are
SQL Server, Oracle, DB2, XML (?), and "MySQL / Open Source".

Dan Scott

On 21/01/07, Robert Bernier <robert.bernier5@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Two things:
>
> 1. When people write for a living it means everything controlling their own creative works i.e. copyright
>
> 2. From a legal standpoint, the site is in the wrong. I refer you to the following three links:
> http://www.llrx.com/features/bloggersbeware.htm
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/copyright-ruling-puts-linking-on-notice/2006/12/19/1166290520771.html
>
> I started this thread because there are people in the postgres community who are being robbed and I think they should
knowabout it. Whether they choose to do something is entirely up to them. As for those who don't think it's an issue
forthemselves, just wait ... it will ... sooner or later. 
>
>
> On Saturday 20 January 2007 19:06, Dan Scott wrote:
> > Hi Robert:
> >
> > If the site does not host the articles themselves, but simply
> > summarizes an article and points to the article in its freely
> > available location on the Web, that sounds like a case of fair use
> > (known as "fair dealing" in Canada). Compare it to the New York Times
> > Book Review; the NYTBR is also a service you pay for (as part of the
> > Sunday edition), that summarizes books, even quotes passages from the
> > books, without funneling any money back to the authors of those books.
> >
> > I am not a lawyer, but I am a librarian, so I do have to understand a
> > fair bit about copyright. From the guy's explanation, and a quick peek
> > around the sswug.org site, it seems like there is no copyright
> > infringement taking place; the site may appear to misrepresent the
> > services it actually offers (it's hard to tell before you sign up as a
> > member that the site is not actually the publisher of most of the
> > information) but that's not a copyright issue.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > On 20/01/07, Robert Bernier <robert.bernier5@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > > Guys,
> > >
> > > What started out as a bit of diversion has ballooned into a hunt for what could be construed as copyright
infringement.
> > >
> > > This site, www.sswug.org, declares that it is "The Largest Independent SQL Server Help Resource On The Net". At
firstblush it appears to have datamined articles and documentation that includes, among others, the PostgreSQL and
FreeBSDcommunities and many, many articles from Oreilly's own website. It seems that the only way you can access those
articlesis purchasing a subscription access using your credit card. 
> > >
> > > Here's the response from the person who controls the site after recieving a request to remove the material:
> > >
> > > > Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:20:01 -0700
> > > > From: Stephen Wynkoop <swynk@sswug.org>
> > > > To: 'Dru' <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca>
> > > > Cc: tribich@ittoolbox.com
> > > > Subject: RE: please remove copyrighted material
> > > >
> > > > Hello!
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for writing - we're not hosting the content on SSWUG at all. Just a
> > > > short summary and then pointing them to your site, promoting your article.
> > > > It's a service we provide for members on the site - making sure they know
> > > > about great content and then sending them to the right sites. We also
> > > > indicate that it's external content on the summary, and outline this in our
> > > > terms of service on the site.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this helps explain. I am an author as well, I would never republish
> > > > content. :)
> > > >
> > > > Let me know if you'd like an account activated so you can see how it works
> > > > - but rest-assured, it's not hosted on our site, just pointed to on your
> > > > site. For example, these two articles send people to:
> > >
> > > I found this link that says he pays for contributions from authors:
> > > http://www.sswug.org/columnists/editorial.asp?wdb=09/27/2006&id=38
> > >
> > > So what's going on? Personally, I don't mind if somebody posts a reference to an article but charging money while
theauthor doesn't see a penny of it? 
> > >
> > > FYI: I used the google option "site:www.sswug.org ...." to see who from the postgres community is referenced:
> > >
> > > Josh Berkus: 240 hits
> > > Andrew Dunstan: 183 hits
> > > Drake: 5 hits
> > > Dan Langille: 1 hit
> > > Bruce Momjian: 31 hits
> > > Elein Mustain: 2 hits
> > >
> > > OTHER HITS:
> > > postgresql: 1100 hits
> > > Dru Lavigne (freebsd): 133 hits
> > >
> > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
> > >
> >
> >
>

Robert,

> Ah, I understand where you're going. Not necesarily, I'm refering to
> articles that have been posted on websites for profit. The website I speak
> of datamines as many copyrighted articles it can find off the internet and
> not just reference documentation. Dru's articles, for instance, have
> definitely not been BSD licensed and O'Reilly certaintly doesn't do that
> i.e. somebody is making money from other people's work.

In that case, you should verify that they are actually reprinting the entire
articles (and not just indexing them, which is legal) and the individual
copyright holders should go after them (Dru, Elein, O'Reilly).   In the event
that someone needs legal advice PostgreSQL has a relationship with a
Copyright/Patent/Licensing attorney in San Francisco.

For my non-ITToolbox stuff, it's all BSD or OPL licensed which would make even
reprinting 100% legal as long as they keep my name on it.  The fact that I
had a lot more hits than Elein (who has written a lot more articles than me)
is some indication that they're paying attention to licensing.  If they are
reprinting my ITToolbox stuff, I'd just turn it over to ITToolBox's attorneys
(which is probably what Dru should do).

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

On Sat, Jan 20, 2007 at 03:03:25PM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> The BSD license allows this.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Robert Bernier wrote:
> > Guys,
> >
> > What started out as a bit of diversion has ballooned into a hunt for what could be construed as copyright
infringement.
> >
> > This site, www.sswug.org, declares that it is "The Largest Independent SQL Server Help Resource On The Net". At
firstblush it appears to have datamined articles and documentation that includes, among others, the PostgreSQL and
FreeBSDcommunities and many, many articles from Oreilly's own website. It seems that the only way you can access those
articlesis purchasing a subscription access using your credit card.  
> >
> > Here's the response from the person who controls the site after recieving a request to remove the material:
> >
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:20:01 -0700
> > > From: Stephen Wynkoop <swynk@sswug.org>
> > > To: 'Dru' <dlavigne6@sympatico.ca>
> > > Cc: tribich@ittoolbox.com
> > > Subject: RE: please remove copyrighted material
> > >
> > > Hello!
> > >
> > > Thanks for writing - we're not hosting the content on SSWUG at all. ?Just a
> > > short summary and then pointing them to your site, promoting your article.
> > > It's a service we provide for members on the site - making sure they know
> > > about great content and then sending them to the right sites. ?We also
> > > indicate that it's external content on the summary, and outline this in our
> > > terms of service on the site.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps explain. ?I am an author as well, I would never republish
> > > content. :)
> > >
> > > Let me know if you'd like an account activated so you can see how it works
> > > - but rest-assured, it's not hosted on our site, just pointed to on your
> > > site. For example, these two articles send people to:
> >
> > I found this link that says he pays for contributions from authors:
> > http://www.sswug.org/columnists/editorial.asp?wdb=09/27/2006&id=38
> >
> > So what's going on? Personally, I don't mind if somebody posts a reference to an article but charging money while
theauthor doesn't see a penny of it? 
> >
> > FYI: I used the google option "site:www.sswug.org ...." to see who from the postgres community is referenced:
> >
> > Josh Berkus: 240 hits
> > Andrew Dunstan: 183 hits
> > Drake: 5 hits
> > Dan Langille: 1 hit
> > Bruce Momjian: 31 hits
> > Elein Mustain: 2 hits
> >
> > OTHER HITS:
> > postgresql: 1100 hits
> > Dru Lavigne (freebsd): 133 hits

As far as I can tell the 2 hits for me were my name mentioned and
one of my slony articles.  The slony article was probably pulled
from O'Reilly.  They did not hit General Bits which is copyrighted.
I have no problem having my name mentioned and I knew if I published
at O'Reilly, the article was out of my control.

--elein

> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>
> --
>   Bruce Momjian   bruce@momjian.us
>   EnterpriseDB    http://www.enterprisedb.com
>
>   + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
>
>                http://archives.postgresql.org
>