Обсуждение: replace training blurb with upcoming pug meetings?
In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was floated
around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with an "upcoming
pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. The training blurb would
then be changed to a direct link saying "looking for training?" (or similar)
which would take you to the full training page. There are some logistical
issues that would need to be worked out to make this happen, but before we go
down that path, I wanted to get a general consensus on the idea. thoughts?
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 12:18 -0400, Robert Treat wrote: > In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was floated > around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with an "upcoming > pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. The training blurb would > then be changed to a direct link saying "looking for training?" (or similar) > which would take you to the full training page. There are some logistical > issues that would need to be worked out to make this happen, but before we go > down that path, I wanted to get a general consensus on the idea. thoughts? I would be amenable to that. I would like to see .Org focusing a bit more on its "community". Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake
On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> wrote: > In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was floated > around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with an "upcoming > pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. The training blurb would > then be changed to a direct link saying "looking for training?" (or similar) > which would take you to the full training page. There are some logistical > issues that would need to be worked out to make this happen, but before we go > down that path, I wanted to get a general consensus on the idea. thoughts? I like it! But I already said that. -selena -- Selena Deckelmann United States PostgreSQL Association - http://www.postgresql.us PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily
Robert Treat wrote: > In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was > floated around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with > an "upcoming pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. The > training blurb would then be changed to a direct link saying "looking > for training?" (or similar) which would take you to the full training > page. There are some logistical issues that would need to be worked > out to make this happen, but before we go down that path, I wanted to > get a general consensus on the idea. thoughts? Any way we can have both? I agree it's a good idea to get upcoming pugs, but I'd like to keep the training info somehow. Do we get an RSS feed off the pugs site that you were planning to use? //Magnus
On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 19:47 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: > Robert Treat wrote: > > In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was > > floated around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with > > an "upcoming pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. The > > training blurb would then be changed to a direct link saying "looking > > for training?" (or similar) which would take you to the full training > > page. There are some logistical issues that would need to be worked > > out to make this happen, but before we go down that path, I wanted to > > get a general consensus on the idea. thoughts? > > Any way we can have both? I agree it's a good idea to get upcoming > pugs, but I'd like to keep the training info somehow. I think it is a matter of deciding the purpose of the space. IMO .Org should be all about community, not all about advertising for commercial providers. That isn't to say we shouldn't help the people who help us (obviously) but it is to say that a PUG should come before CMD, EDB or any other commercial entity listed. That being said, we have a problem in that the front page is remarkably cluttered. It is trying to tell people entirely too much all at once. Something has to give if we are going to add PUGS. Training or Latest News seems the most appropriate. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake
[sorry i sent that to you directly, magnus] On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> wrote: > Robert Treat wrote: >> In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was >> floated around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with >> an "upcoming pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. The >> training blurb would then be changed to a direct link saying "looking >> for training?" (or similar) which would take you to the full training >> page. There are some logistical issues that would need to be worked >> out to make this happen, but before we go down that path, I wanted to >> get a general consensus on the idea. thoughts? > > Any way we can have both? I agree it's a good idea to get upcoming > pugs, but I'd like to keep the training info somehow. > > Do we get an RSS feed off the pugs site that you were planning to use? Not yet. That's the "logistical issues" Robert is referring to. I think I know what to do - there's an iCal microformat we can use, and I'd just need to add a few fields to the default blog entries. Probably will take me a few days to get to. -selena -- Selena Deckelmann United States PostgreSQL Association - http://www.postgresql.us PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily
On Wednesday 28 May 2008 13:55:16 Selena Deckelmann wrote:
> [sorry i sent that to you directly, magnus]
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net>
wrote:
> > Robert Treat wrote:
> >> In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was
> >> floated around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with
> >> an "upcoming pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. The
> >> training blurb would then be changed to a direct link saying "looking
> >> for training?" (or similar) which would take you to the full training
> >> page. There are some logistical issues that would need to be worked
> >> out to make this happen, but before we go down that path, I wanted to
> >> get a general consensus on the idea. thoughts?
> >
> > Any way we can have both? I agree it's a good idea to get upcoming
> > pugs, but I'd like to keep the training info somehow.
> >
> > Do we get an RSS feed off the pugs site that you were planning to use?
>
> Not yet. That's the "logistical issues" Robert is referring to.
>
> I think I know what to do - there's an iCal microformat we can use,
> and I'd just need to add a few fields to the default blog entries.
>
> Probably will take me a few days to get to.
>
right, but there's no sense putting in the work untill we know it's going to
be used.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 10:58 -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 19:47 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: > > Robert Treat wrote: > > > In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was > > > floated around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with > > > an "upcoming pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. The > > > training blurb would then be changed to a direct link saying "looking > > > for training?" (or similar) which would take you to the full training > > > page. There are some logistical issues that would need to be worked > > > out to make this happen, but before we go down that path, I wanted to > > > get a general consensus on the idea. thoughts? > > > > Any way we can have both? I agree it's a good idea to get upcoming > > pugs, but I'd like to keep the training info somehow. > > I think it is a matter of deciding the purpose of the space. IMO .Org > should be all about community, not all about advertising for commercial > providers. That isn't to say we shouldn't help the people who help us > (obviously) but it is to say that a PUG should come before CMD, EDB or > any other commercial entity listed. > > That being said, we have a problem in that the front page is remarkably > cluttered. It is trying to tell people entirely too much all at once. > Something has to give if we are going to add PUGS. Training or Latest > News seems the most appropriate. Yes, it is cluttered, so I think we should scroll down the page and make more space for ourselves. The community includes commercial people too. And the commercial people only exist because they are wanted and needed. The suggestion to have a list of PUGs over training could go the other way too. We could say "Want a PUG?". If they do, they'll click. That is of course fairly silly, but then so is "Want training?", which hides anything interesting and unusual and effectively kills it. If we do that I may as well pack up and just offer one course called "Training". People want a way to scan all things that might be of interest, not one category or another. Yes, we need a way to expand the PUGs. -- Simon Riggs www.2ndQuadrant.comPostgreSQL Training, Services and Support
"Shortcuts": seems nasty there, and IMHO too big for a shortcut list. I am sure that we can find a better place for it! "Support us": How much support do we receive via this link? :s Between both *dialogs* we can create a new place for upcoming pugs, though. gb.- On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 7:11 PM, Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com> wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 10:58 -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> >> On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 19:47 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: >> > Robert Treat wrote: >> > > In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was >> > > floated around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with >> > > an "upcoming pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. The >> > > training blurb would then be changed to a direct link saying "looking >> > > for training?" (or similar) which would take you to the full training >> > > page. There are some logistical issues that would need to be worked >> > > out to make this happen, but before we go down that path, I wanted to >> > > get a general consensus on the idea. thoughts? >> > >> > Any way we can have both? I agree it's a good idea to get upcoming >> > pugs, but I'd like to keep the training info somehow. >> >> I think it is a matter of deciding the purpose of the space. IMO .Org >> should be all about community, not all about advertising for commercial >> providers. That isn't to say we shouldn't help the people who help us >> (obviously) but it is to say that a PUG should come before CMD, EDB or >> any other commercial entity listed. >> >> That being said, we have a problem in that the front page is remarkably >> cluttered. It is trying to tell people entirely too much all at once. >> Something has to give if we are going to add PUGS. Training or Latest >> News seems the most appropriate. > > Yes, it is cluttered, so I think we should scroll down the page and make > more space for ourselves. > > The community includes commercial people too. And the commercial people > only exist because they are wanted and needed. > > The suggestion to have a list of PUGs over training could go the other > way too. We could say "Want a PUG?". If they do, they'll click. That is > of course fairly silly, but then so is "Want training?", which hides > anything interesting and unusual and effectively kills it. If we do that > I may as well pack up and just offer one course called "Training". > > People want a way to scan all things that might be of interest, not one > category or another. Yes, we need a way to expand the PUGs. > > -- > Simon Riggs www.2ndQuadrant.com > PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support > > > -- > Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www > -- Guido Barosio ----------------------- http://www.globant.com guido.barosio@globant.com
On Wednesday 28 May 2008 18:11:19 Simon Riggs wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 10:58 -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 19:47 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> > > Robert Treat wrote:
> > > > In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was
> > > > floated around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with
> > > > an "upcoming pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. The
> > > > training blurb would then be changed to a direct link saying "looking
> > > > for training?" (or similar) which would take you to the full training
> > > > page. There are some logistical issues that would need to be worked
> > > > out to make this happen, but before we go down that path, I wanted to
> > > > get a general consensus on the idea. thoughts?
> > >
> > > Any way we can have both? I agree it's a good idea to get upcoming
> > > pugs, but I'd like to keep the training info somehow.
> >
> > I think it is a matter of deciding the purpose of the space. IMO .Org
> > should be all about community, not all about advertising for commercial
> > providers. That isn't to say we shouldn't help the people who help us
> > (obviously) but it is to say that a PUG should come before CMD, EDB or
> > any other commercial entity listed.
> >
> > That being said, we have a problem in that the front page is remarkably
> > cluttered. It is trying to tell people entirely too much all at once.
> > Something has to give if we are going to add PUGS. Training or Latest
> > News seems the most appropriate.
>
> Yes, it is cluttered, so I think we should scroll down the page and make
> more space for ourselves.
>
> The community includes commercial people too. And the commercial people
> only exist because they are wanted and needed.
>
> The suggestion to have a list of PUGs over training could go the other
> way too. We could say "Want a PUG?". If they do, they'll click. That is
> of course fairly silly, but then so is "Want training?", which hides
> anything interesting and unusual and effectively kills it. If we do that
> I may as well pack up and just offer one course called "Training".
>
See, to me the current training blurb is already devoid enough of content that
I think it is only marginally better than a direct link pointing people
towards the full training. Adding in a list of PUG meetings helps highlight
the growing regional presence and international communities for postgres
around the world. I feel this used to be accomplished by the training
listing, but there was so much gamesmanship between the training companies
that we had to mold it into it's current, less than exciting, format. I don't
expect that gamesmanship from the PUGS.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Robert Treat wrote: > > The suggestion to have a list of PUGs over training could go the other > > way too. We could say "Want a PUG?". If they do, they'll click. That is > > of course fairly silly, but then so is "Want training?", which hides > > anything interesting and unusual and effectively kills it. If we do that > > I may as well pack up and just offer one course called "Training". > > > > See, to me the current training blurb is already devoid enough of content that > I think it is only marginally better than a direct link pointing people > towards the full training. Adding in a list of PUG meetings helps highlight > the growing regional presence and international communities for postgres > around the world. I feel this used to be accomplished by the training > listing, but there was so much gamesmanship between the training companies > that we had to mold it into it's current, less than exciting, format. I don't > expect that gamesmanship from the PUGS. Agreed. While we need a training page, it is hard to argue we need to show any training details on the main page. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
Robert Treat wrote: > In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was floated > around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with an "upcoming > pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. I think this would probably be a very skewed listing. Some user groups never have real meetings, at least not outside of yearly events that are listed anyway. Others might meet weekly for pub night. There would need to be a fair amount of researching and policy making before such a listing could be produced in a fair manner.
Hi Peter, I imagine you're fully recovered from your race at this point! :) Nice to meet you at PgCon. On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 3:14 AM, Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> wrote: > Robert Treat wrote: >> In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was floated >> around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with an "upcoming >> pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. > > I think this would probably be a very skewed listing. Some user groups never > have real meetings, at least not outside of yearly events that are listed > anyway. Others might meet weekly for pub night. There would need to be a > fair amount of researching and policy making before such a listing could be > produced in a fair manner. The policy is simple: list events from groups that are having upcoming meetings. PgDays and conferences should still be listed under Events, rather than under PUGs. The primary goal in presenting PUGs on the front page is to show to outsiders how much growth there has been in user group activity. It's an indicator that "people like me" use PostgreSQL. Listing these on the front page is also a not-so-subtle encouragement to PUGs that we'd like more regular meetings. Here's a rough indication of events: There are five groups in the US that are having monthly meetings. Last I heard, the Moscow group was meeting monthly. Several groups have just had their first meeting in the last two months. I think UKPUG is the only group ambitious enough to suggest a weekly pub night, but I would love to be proved wrong. The other groups, I will contact and find out how frequently they meet. -selena -- Selena Deckelmann United States PostgreSQL Association - http://www.postgresql.us PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Selena Deckelmann <selenamarie@gmail.com> wrote: > I think UKPUG is > the only group ambitious enough to suggest a weekly pub night, but I > would love to be proved wrong. Weekly is not strictly accurate - that's just Greg and I trying to escape from the office on a Friday :-p. We were thinking of every few months. -- Dave Page EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 7:35 AM, Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Selena Deckelmann > <selenamarie@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I think UKPUG is >> the only group ambitious enough to suggest a weekly pub night, but I >> would love to be proved wrong. > > Weekly is not strictly accurate - that's just Greg and I trying to > escape from the office on a Friday :-p. We were thinking of every few > months. To be honest, I think that's the best reason to have a meeting "about" PostgreSQL I've heard. ;) Some other group, then, will need to take up the Weekly Pub Challenge. Sweden, perhaps? -selena -- Selena Deckelmann United States PostgreSQL Association - http://www.postgresql.us PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily
Selena Deckelmann wrote: > The primary goal in presenting PUGs on the front page is to show to > outsiders how much growth there has been in user group activity. It's > an indicator that "people like me" use PostgreSQL. Listing these on > the front page is also a not-so-subtle encouragement to PUGs that we'd > like more regular meetings. I'm always a fan of the concept that information is put on a web page with the intent of giving people useable information. As opposed to the concept that information is put up with the intent of encouraging people to produce more information of the same kind. Note that we are talking about the front page here. "Kuala Lumpur PG user group meets tonight" is never of interest to sizeable portion of the people. A link "Find a local user group" might be.
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> wrote: > Selena Deckelmann wrote: >> The primary goal in presenting PUGs on the front page is to show to >> outsiders how much growth there has been in user group activity. It's >> an indicator that "people like me" use PostgreSQL. Listing these on >> the front page is also a not-so-subtle encouragement to PUGs that we'd >> like more regular meetings. > > I'm always a fan of the concept that information is put on a web page with the > intent of giving people useable information. As opposed to the concept that > information is put up with the intent of encouraging people to produce more > information of the same kind. I'm encouraging behavior rather than information production, but fair enough ;) And if by usable you mean 'actionable' - regardless of *where* an event is, most of the topics being discussed are decidedly *not* local. We're going to have someone give a Materialized Views talk in Portland this August that many people will be interested in, for example. Slides (and maybe by then audio) will be available! PUGs provide insight into our community and people in a way that the mostly static Training blurb does not. And I think other folks in this thread have agreed that replacing the static blurb, but keeping a link to training would be ok. Peter, are you opposed to that? > Note that we are talking about the front page here. "Kuala Lumpur PG user > group meets tonight" is never of interest to sizeable portion of the people. > A link "Find a local user group" might be. Perhaps it is not interesting because you can't attend that particular a meeting, but it is certainly interesting that there would be enough people in Kuala Lumpur for a meeting. The meeting in Morocco was a great example of this. Also, a person might assume that because of their location (Oklahoma) that there would never be a user group, but in fact, Emilie is starting a group there. Along the same line of thinking, if you *do* see Kuala Lumpur in there, you may think, "Wow, I live in Peru. If there's a meeting in Kuala Lumpur, then there might be a meeting in Peru!" and go looking for it. Generally speaking, uncommon things are *very* interesting to people - so interesting that they are a basic element of news! We encourage serendipity in having the user group events scrolling by on the front page. It indicates action and people, rather than reference and machines. And while there are a few of us that prefer the machines, people still tend to like other people :) -selena -- Selena Deckelmann United States PostgreSQL Association - http://www.postgresql.us PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily
Robert Treat wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:200805282110.54958.xzilla@users.sourceforge.net" type="cite"><pre wrap="">On Wednesday28 May 2008 18:11:19 Simon Riggs wrote: </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 10:58 -0700,Joshua D. Drake wrote: </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 19:47 +0200, Magnus Haganderwrote: </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">Robert Treat wrote: </pre><blockquote type="cite"><prewrap="">In an effort to give more visibility to the pugs, one idea that was floated around was replacing the training blurb on the main site with an "upcoming pugs" section, modeled after the upcoming events. The training blurb would then be changed to a direct link saying "looking for training?" (or similar) which would take you to the full training page. There are some logistical issues that would need to be worked out to make this happen, but before we go down that path, I wanted to get a general consensus on the idea. thoughts? </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">Any way we can have both? I agreeit's a good idea to get upcoming pugs, but I'd like to keep the training info somehow. </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">I think it is a matter of decidingthe purpose of the space. IMO .Org should be all about community, not all about advertising for commercial providers. That isn't to say we shouldn't help the people who help us (obviously) but it is to say that a PUG should come before CMD, EDB or any other commercial entity listed. That being said, we have a problem in that the front page is remarkably cluttered. It is trying to tell people entirely too much all at once. Something has to give if we are going to add PUGS. Training or Latest News seems the most appropriate. </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">Yes, it is cluttered, so I think we should scroll downthe page and make more space for ourselves. The community includes commercial people too. And the commercial people only exist because they are wanted and needed. The suggestion to have a list of PUGs over training could go the other way too. We could say "Want a PUG?". If they do, they'll click. That is of course fairly silly, but then so is "Want training?", which hides anything interesting and unusual and effectively kills it. If we do that I may as well pack up and just offer one course called "Training". </pre></blockquote><pre wrap=""> See, to me the current training blurb is already devoid enough of content that I think it is only marginally better than a direct link pointing people towards the full training. Adding in a list of PUG meetings helps highlight the growing regional presence and international communities for postgres around the world. I feel this used to be accomplished by the training listing, but there was so much gamesmanship between the training companies that we had to mold it into it's current, less than exciting, format. I don't expect that gamesmanship from the PUGS. </pre></blockquote> I'd have to whole-heartedly agree. We saw a lot more interest in training when there were a few courseslisted on the main page (those few being the ones that we would tend to get the most calls about). With the shiftto not showing any courses on the main page (due to event spam of sorts), the interest has really waned (though itsdifficult to determine if this is due to economic factors as opposed to page changing, I think it has to do a little withboth).<br /><br /> I think a single link to training in a spot of its very own would provide a bit more visibility thanbeing cluttered with some text and a link. Perhaps we can have some list of the number of events as well? Want training(22 events coming up!)?<br /><br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- Chander Ganesan Open Technology Group, Inc. One Copley Parkway, Suite 210 Morrisville, NC 27560 919-463-0999/877-258-8987 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a></pre>
On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 17:10 -0400, Chander Ganesan wrote: > > I think a single link to training in a spot of its very own would > provide a bit more visibility than being cluttered with some text and > a link. Perhaps we can have some list of the number of events as > well? Want training (22 events coming up!)? One option would be to remove events, news, training, and planet listings and instead have larger and nicer representation for direct links: Find a User group! Get Training! Latest News! Our community Blogs! Each of those would be direct links respectively. This would significantly reduce the noise on the page. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 17:10 -0400, Chander Ganesan wrote: > > > > > I think a single link to training in a spot of its very own would > > provide a bit more visibility than being cluttered with some text > > and a link. Perhaps we can have some list of the number of events > > as well? Want training (22 events coming up!)? > > > One option would be to remove events, news, training, and planet > listings and instead have larger and nicer representation for direct > links: > > Find a User group! > Get Training! > Latest News! > Our community Blogs! > > Each of those would be direct links respectively. This would > significantly reduce the noise on the page. Or we just remove the frontpage completely? ;-) IMHO this would significantly reduce the value of the information there. If anything should be removed, it's IMHO the shortcuts and "support us" sections. Second to that is training. All the others are IMHO much more important than the usergroup listings (which doesn't say that the usergroup listings aren't important, of course). I'm sure a lot could be done to reduce the clutter-factor though, but I think most of that can be solved by applying a better layout for things. (No, I'm not volunteering to do that, because I suck at that kind of work :-P) //Magnus
On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 09:09 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 17:10 -0400, Chander Ganesan wrote: > > > > > > > > I think a single link to training in a spot of its very own would > > > provide a bit more visibility than being cluttered with some text > > > and a link. Perhaps we can have some list of the number of events > > > as well? Want training (22 events coming up!)? > > > > > > One option would be to remove events, news, training, and planet > > listings and instead have larger and nicer representation for direct > > links: > > > > Find a User group! > > Get Training! > > Latest News! > > Our community Blogs! > > > > Each of those would be direct links respectively. This would > > significantly reduce the noise on the page. > > Or we just remove the frontpage completely? ;-) > > IMHO this would significantly reduce the value of the information > there. If anything should be removed, it's IMHO the shortcuts and > "support us" sections. Second to that is training. All the others are > IMHO much more important than the usergroup listings (which doesn't say > that the usergroup listings aren't important, of course). Hmmm. I think its hard to say which are the more popular links. Many people would never click on training, but if there was a training course they wanted they would go. But how would they ever know? Same with user groups. Many people wouldn't be interested, but open a user group in their local area and suddenly they care? But how would they ever know? So I suggest two things: * move the suggested topics to detail pages. Give prominence to what turns out to be most popular. Look at hits, don't speculate or argue. * have a way of bubbling up information from details to front page. Do this fairly randomly, so the front page is fresh and exciting each time you visit. I think people are interested in new and interesting things, however we categorise them. Running the same course title monthly for a year is not news, but then neither is the 5th meeting this year of the Pugtown PUG. Nor is writing multiple blog entries on the same day. We just need a way for proactive and/or innovative people to get attention for their activities, without being swamped by bulk marketing activities by the overzealous. Cool blogs, new courses, new PUGs etc are what people want to know about. Can we review again the reasons for keeping all on one page? Why not allow the screen to scroll down? -- Simon Riggs www.2ndQuadrant.comPostgreSQL Training, Services and Support
Simon Riggs wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 09:09 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: > > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 17:10 -0400, Chander Ganesan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I think a single link to training in a spot of its very own > > > > would provide a bit more visibility than being cluttered with > > > > some text and a link. Perhaps we can have some list of the > > > > number of events as well? Want training (22 events coming up!)? > > > > > > > > > One option would be to remove events, news, training, and planet > > > listings and instead have larger and nicer representation for > > > direct links: > > > > > > Find a User group! > > > Get Training! > > > Latest News! > > > Our community Blogs! > > > > > > Each of those would be direct links respectively. This would > > > significantly reduce the noise on the page. > > > > Or we just remove the frontpage completely? ;-) > > > > IMHO this would significantly reduce the value of the information > > there. If anything should be removed, it's IMHO the shortcuts and > > "support us" sections. Second to that is training. All the others > > are IMHO much more important than the usergroup listings (which > > doesn't say that the usergroup listings aren't important, of > > course). > > Hmmm. I think its hard to say which are the more popular links. > > Many people would never click on training, but if there was a training > course they wanted they would go. But how would they ever know? Same > with user groups. Many people wouldn't be interested, but open a user > group in their local area and suddenly they care? But how would they > ever know? > > So I suggest two things: > > * move the suggested topics to detail pages. Give prominence to what > turns out to be most popular. Look at hits, don't speculate or argue. Right. A look at things now show on google analytics for the frontpage: Between 150 and 600 clicks on each news item, depending on how interesting it was (0.1%-0.2% of clicks) About 500 clicks on the news archive (0.2%) About 50 clicks on each event (<0.1%) About 500 clicks on the events archive (0.2%) About 18,000 clicks on the planetpostgresql links (6.5%) > * have a way of bubbling up information from details to front page. Do > this fairly randomly, so the front page is fresh and exciting each > time you visit. That's kind of what we're doing now, no? News + planet + events? It keeps the site updating. Just keeping static links to subsections will make the page static and uninteresting. > I think people are interested in new and interesting things, however > we categorise them. Running the same course title monthly for a year > is not news, but then neither is the 5th meeting this year of the > Pugtown PUG. Nor is writing multiple blog entries on the same day. Agreed, except actually multiple blog entries on the same day can certainly be interesting, if they're about different and interesting topics. > We just need a way for proactive and/or innovative people to get > attention for their activities, without being swamped by bulk > marketing activities by the overzealous. Cool blogs, new courses, new > PUGs etc are what people want to know about. > > Can we review again the reasons for keeping all on one page? Why not > allow the screen to scroll down? The screen already scrolls, because we increased the length of each section. (Well, it depends on your screen resolution of course, but in for example 1024x768 (not untypical since a lot of people don't use maximized browser windows) it does). I think it's fine to have the screen scroll, but it'd be good if we can keep the headlines on the initially visible part so that people know to scroll. (It does that now at 768 lines at least) //Magnus
On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 10:20 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: > > I think people are interested in new and interesting things, however > > we categorise them. Running the same course title monthly for a year > > is not news, but then neither is the 5th meeting this year of the > > Pugtown PUG. Nor is writing multiple blog entries on the same day. > > Agreed, except actually multiple blog entries on the same day can > certainly be interesting, if they're about different and interesting > topics. I agree, but I think we need a reasonable cut-off point. > > We just need a way for proactive and/or innovative people to get > > attention for their activities, without being swamped by bulk > > marketing activities by the overzealous. Cool blogs, new courses, new > > PUGs etc are what people want to know about. > > > > Can we review again the reasons for keeping all on one page? Why not > > allow the screen to scroll down? > > The screen already scrolls, because we increased the length of each > section. (Well, it depends on your screen resolution of course, but > in for example 1024x768 (not untypical since a lot of people don't > use maximized browser windows) it does). > > I think it's fine to have the screen scroll, but it'd be good if we can > keep the headlines on the initially visible part so that people know to > scroll. (It does that now at 768 lines at least) Agreed. -- Simon Riggs www.2ndQuadrant.comPostgreSQL Training, Services and Support
Magnus Hagander wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:20080604102047.6c95bbb0@mha-laptop.hagander.net" type="cite"><pre
wrap="">SimonRiggs wrote: </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 09:09 +0200, Magnus Hagander
wrote: </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">Joshua D. Drake wrote: </pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre
wrap="">
On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 17:10 -0400, Chander Ganesan wrote:
</pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">I think a single link to training in a spot of its very own
would provide a bit more visibility than being cluttered with
some text and a link. Perhaps we can have some list of the
number of events as well? Want training (22 events coming up!)? </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
One option would be to remove events, news, training, and planet
listings and instead have larger and nicer representation for
direct links:
Find a User group!
Get Training!
Latest News!
Our community Blogs!
Each of those would be direct links respectively. This would
significantly reduce the noise on the page. </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">Or we just remove the frontpage
completely?;-)
IMHO this would significantly reduce the value of the information
there. If anything should be removed, it's IMHO the shortcuts and
"support us" sections. Second to that is training. All the others
are IMHO much more important than the usergroup listings (which
doesn't say that the usergroup listings aren't important, of
course). </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">Hmmm. I think its hard to say which are the more popular links.
Many people would never click on training, but if there was a training
course they wanted they would go. But how would they ever know? Same
with user groups. Many people wouldn't be interested, but open a user
group in their local area and suddenly they care? But how would they
ever know?
So I suggest two things:
* move the suggested topics to detail pages. Give prominence to what
turns out to be most popular. Look at hits, don't speculate or argue. </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
Right. A look at things now show on google analytics for the frontpage:
Between 150 and 600 clicks on each news item, depending on how
interesting it was (0.1%-0.2% of clicks)
About 500 clicks on the news archive (0.2%)
About 50 clicks on each event (<0.1%)
About 500 clicks on the events archive (0.2%)
About 18,000 clicks on the planetpostgresql links (6.5%)
</pre></blockquote> Perhaps a bit of experimentation? Make a small change to the site and see how that affects
things. Obviously, we want people to stay there longer and click on more "stuff". It seems that since the blog links
areso popular they might be something to draw more attention to...same with the news archive.<br /><br /> I didn't
realizethere was an events archive? Or is that the list of events that are coming up that isn't on the front page?
Arethere any stats for the training archive? How about before the changes were made to the page to remove the three
recentevents? Having such information would give us a clue as to whether its better to move all events elsewhere, or
leavethem where they are. It would also give us information about the expected usefulness of putting PUG events on the
mainpage versus just hosting a link to said events.<br /><br /> I would think we'd want to know:<br /><br /> Of people
wholooked at the event archive (< .1%) how many people clicked on an event (which would give us a guesstimate as to
howmany people actually click on events using the event archive).<br /> Pre training page change, how many people
clickedon front page training events, versus how many clicked on an event via the "training archive" page?<br /><br />
chander<br/><br /><blockquote cite="mid:20080604102047.6c95bbb0@mha-laptop.hagander.net" type="cite"><pre wrap="">
</pre><blockquotetype="cite"><pre wrap="">* have a way of bubbling up information from details to front page. Do
this fairly randomly, so the front page is fresh and exciting each
time you visit. </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
That's kind of what we're doing now, no? News + planet + events?
It keeps the site updating. Just keeping static links to subsections
will make the page static and uninteresting.
</pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">I think people are interested in new and interesting things, however
we categorise them. Running the same course title monthly for a year
is not news, but then neither is the 5th meeting this year of the
Pugtown PUG. Nor is writing multiple blog entries on the same day. </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
Agreed, except actually multiple blog entries on the same day can
certainly be interesting, if they're about different and interesting
topics.
</pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">We just need a way for proactive and/or innovative people to get
attention for their activities, without being swamped by bulk
marketing activities by the overzealous. Cool blogs, new courses, new
PUGs etc are what people want to know about.
Can we review again the reasons for keeping all on one page? Why not
allow the screen to scroll down? </pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
The screen already scrolls, because we increased the length of each
section. (Well, it depends on your screen resolution of course, but
in for example 1024x768 (not untypical since a lot of people don't
use maximized browser windows) it does).
I think it's fine to have the screen scroll, but it'd be good if we can
keep the headlines on the initially visible part so that people know to
scroll. (It does that now at 768 lines at least)
//Magnus
</pre></blockquote><br /><br /><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC 27560
919-463-0999/877-258-8987
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.otg-nc.com">http://www.otg-nc.com</a></pre>
Simon Riggs wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 09:09 +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: > >> Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 17:10 -0400, Chander Ganesan wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I think a single link to training in a spot of its very own would >>>> provide a bit more visibility than being cluttered with some text >>>> and a link. Perhaps we can have some list of the number of events >>>> as well? Want training (22 events coming up!)? >>>> >>> One option would be to remove events, news, training, and planet >>> listings and instead have larger and nicer representation for direct >>> links: >>> >>> Find a User group! >>> Get Training! >>> Latest News! >>> Our community Blogs! >>> >>> Each of those would be direct links respectively. This would >>> significantly reduce the noise on the page. >>> >> Or we just remove the frontpage completely? ;-) >> >> IMHO this would significantly reduce the value of the information >> there. If anything should be removed, it's IMHO the shortcuts and >> "support us" sections. Second to that is training. All the others are >> IMHO much more important than the usergroup listings (which doesn't say >> that the usergroup listings aren't important, of course). >> > > Hmmm. I think its hard to say which are the more popular links. > > Many people would never click on training, but if there was a training > course they wanted they would go. But how would they ever know? Same > with user groups. Many people wouldn't be interested, but open a user > group in their local area and suddenly they care? But how would they > ever know? > > So I suggest two things: > > * move the suggested topics to detail pages. Give prominence to what > turns out to be most popular. Look at hits, don't speculate or argue. > +1 > * have a way of bubbling up information from details to front page. Do > this fairly randomly, so the front page is fresh and exciting each time > you visit. > +1 > I think people are interested in new and interesting things, however we > categorise them. Running the same course title monthly for a year is not > news, but then neither is the 5th meeting this year of the Pugtown PUG. > Nor is writing multiple blog entries on the same day. > +0 I think while that might be true of blogs and pugs, its not true of training. People want to know where and when they can get a class. New courses are interesting, but I'll bet the vast majority of people who look for training aren't looking for a performance tuning, or some kind of HA course - they are interested in Administration or basic SQL, since thats often what they need to do their job. Let's not discount the value of the "news" portion of the page, which brings attention to "new and exciting" for vendors. Running the same admin course monthly might not be of interest to a PG admin with 5 years of experience, but its definitely of interest to a new PG person, and is definitely (IMHO) a core component to building the community. I'd argue that you're more likely to lose the new guy that can't get training than the experienced guy who lives for exciting new PG product offerings. > We just need a way for proactive and/or innovative people to get > attention for their activities, without being swamped by bulk marketing > activities by the overzealous. Cool blogs, new courses, new PUGs etc are > what people want to know about. > To paraphrase a response I got from this list about a similar topic "Isn't that what the News link is for?" On a side note, I've brought up the "bulk marketing activities by the overzealous" several times in the past...which I think might be part of the reason things look the way they are now. I fought the battle of trying to limit what commercial vendors can do on the training side (limiting the number of listings, locations, etc) in a wide range of ways last year...no dice, since unless there's a clear indicator that someone is doing something that is wrong, unethical, or misleading...there isn't much the community can do. I'm as upset as you are about what I percieve to be "overzealous" marketing, and we have been forced to change a bit of our business model to be competitive (such as offering courses in other cities). I think we do it in a fairly ethical way though ...for example... We're running (at a loss, I'll add) a PostgreSQL Admin course in Santa Clara later this month. There are 3 people enrolled in it, yet I'm renting a facility and flying out an instructor to teach the class (we advertise a minimum of 5 to run a course there). If you know anyone that might be interested... ;-) -- Chander Ganesan Open Technology Group, Inc. One Copley Parkway, Suite 210 Morrisville, NC 27560 919-463-0999/877-258-8987 http://www.otg-nc.com
I see a lot of speculation in this thread about what are and are not popular links, with exactly zero reference to actual page hits. Don't we collect statistics on what pages people visit? A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@commandprompt.com +1 503 667 4564 x104 http://www.commandprompt.com/
On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 09:29:05AM -0400, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > I see a lot of speculation in this thread about what are and are not > popular links, with exactly zero reference to actual page hits. Don't > we collect statistics on what pages people visit? I spoke too soon -- Magnus referred to some in the next message I read after posting this. I'll shut up now. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@commandprompt.com +1 503 667 4564 x104 http://www.commandprompt.com/
Magnus Hagander wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> >> On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 17:10 -0400, Chander Ganesan wrote: >> >>> I think a single link to training in a spot of its very own would >>> provide a bit more visibility than being cluttered with some text >>> and a link. Perhaps we can have some list of the number of events >>> as well? Want training (22 events coming up!)? >> >> One option would be to remove events, news, training, and planet >> listings and instead have larger and nicer representation for direct >> links: >> >> Find a User group! >> Get Training! >> Latest News! >> Our community Blogs! >> >> Each of those would be direct links respectively. This would >> significantly reduce the noise on the page. > > Or we just remove the frontpage completely? ;-) No that isn't what I said, let's not get silly. > > IMHO this would significantly reduce the value of the information > there. If anything should be removed, it's IMHO the shortcuts and I would argue it would make it much more valuable by making it actually useful versus a big pile of pasta on a screen. > "support us" sections. Second to that is training. All the others are Support us takes up too much space, I agree. It should be a nice little donate button somewhere on the top right or bottom right. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake
Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> "support us" sections. Second to that is training. All the others are > > Support us takes up too much space, I agree. It should be a nice little > donate button somewhere on the top right or bottom right. I'm eagerly awaiting a screendump of how you think it should look :-P //Magnus