Обсуждение: Features list
I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about postgres these days. It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of the Advantages page. In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres. So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses: - Option 1 - Add a new vertical panel (perhaps replacing the Planet PostgreSQL one) listing 'Feature at a glance'. This would be a bullet point list, with links to further information where required - for example, to explain the benefits of MVCC or our Replication-in-core policy and external solutions. - Option 2 - Add a new horizontal panel under the announcement panel, and above the featured user, containing a 'How can PostgreSQL help me' link (or some other similar text), linking to a page bullet pointing the technical reasons, including the replication info. - Option 3 - Add a 'Key Features' menu option to the grey banner, right-justified so it appears under the tagline in the banner. Link this to the same page described in option 2. Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas? Regards, Dave
On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 12:22:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again > saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the > lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about > postgres these days. > > It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is > nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's > most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About > section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of > the Advantages page. > > In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features > (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a > more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with > non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres. > > So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show > people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses: > > - Option 1 - Add a new vertical panel (perhaps replacing the Planet > PostgreSQL one) listing 'Feature at a glance'. This would be a bullet > point list, with links to further information where required - for > example, to explain the benefits of MVCC or our Replication-in-core > policy and external solutions. Don't like this one if you're dropping planetpg ;-) And I don't think we have room for much more. > - Option 2 - Add a new horizontal panel under the announcement panel, > and above the featured user, containing a 'How can PostgreSQL help me' > link (or some other similar text), linking to a page bullet pointing the > technical reasons, including the replication info. This I like more. THe page itself would go under /about, I assume? > - Option 3 - Add a 'Key Features' menu option to the grey banner, > right-justified so it appears under the tagline in the banner. Link this > to the same page described in option 2. Uh, I'm not sure I get what you mean - you mean to the right of the word "Support"? If so, then it should be left-justified, not right. > Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas? Maybe both 2 and 3? ;-) What kind of page were you envisioning? One listing pure key features, or something like Stefans feature-comparison list? (http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Feature_Matrix) //Magnus
Magnus Hagander wrote: >> - Option 2 - Add a new horizontal panel under the announcement panel, >> and above the featured user, containing a 'How can PostgreSQL help me' >> link (or some other similar text), linking to a page bullet pointing the >> technical reasons, including the replication info. > > This I like more. THe page itself would go under /about, I assume? > > >> - Option 3 - Add a 'Key Features' menu option to the grey banner, >> right-justified so it appears under the tagline in the banner. Link this >> to the same page described in option 2. > > Uh, I'm not sure I get what you mean - you mean to the right of the word > "Support"? If so, then it should be left-justified, not right. The reason for right justifying it was to put it right under the 'The world's most advanced Open Source Database' text. But I can see that doesn't fit in with the whole concept of top and sub level menus. >> Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas? > > Maybe both 2 and 3? ;-) > > What kind of page were you envisioning? One listing pure key features, or > something like Stefans feature-comparison list? > (http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Feature_Matrix) A list of key features that any new dev can just scan through and tick off their basic requirements from. /D
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Dave Page wrote:
> I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again
> saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the
> lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about
> postgres these days.
>
> It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is
> nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's
> most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About
> section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of
> the Advantages page.
>
> In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features
> (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a
> more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with
> non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres.
>
> So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show
> people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses:
May I humbly suggest than instead of the below, we remove the book of
text that is /about with what you suggest? :) We really provide entirely
too much info in about that could be better put in something like
/about/extended or something.
Joshua D. Drake
>
> - Option 1 - Add a new vertical panel (perhaps replacing the Planet
> PostgreSQL one) listing 'Feature at a glance'. This would be a bullet
> point list, with links to further information where required - for
> example, to explain the benefits of MVCC or our Replication-in-core
> policy and external solutions.
>
> - Option 2 - Add a new horizontal panel under the announcement panel,
> and above the featured user, containing a 'How can PostgreSQL help me'
> link (or some other similar text), linking to a page bullet pointing the
> technical reasons, including the replication info.
>
> - Option 3 - Add a 'Key Features' menu option to the grey banner,
> right-justified so it appears under the tagline in the banner. Link this
> to the same page described in option 2.
>
> Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas?
>
> Regards, Dave
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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>
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Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Dave Page wrote: >> I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again >> saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the >> lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about >> postgres these days. > >> It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is >> nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's >> most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About >> section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of >> the Advantages page. > >> In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features >> (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a >> more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with >> non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres. > >> So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show >> people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses: > > May I humbly suggest than instead of the below, we remove the book of > text that is /about with what you suggest? :) We really provide entirely > too much info in about that could be better put in something like > /about/extended or something. Yes, I'd be happy with that, but I still think it should be more prominently linked form the front page. IF we can get some of the detail there as well, even better - I'm really sick of hearing that we have no replication!!! /D
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Dave Page wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Dave Page wrote:
>>> In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features
>>> (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a
>>> more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with
>>> non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres.
>>> So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show
>>> people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses:
>> May I humbly suggest than instead of the below, we remove the book of
>> text that is /about with what you suggest? :) We really provide entirely
>> too much info in about that could be better put in something like
>> /about/extended or something.
>
> Yes, I'd be happy with that, but I still think it should be more
> prominently linked form the front page. IF we can get some of the detail
> there as well, even better - I'm really sick of hearing that we have no
> replication!!!
Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we
have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of
statement based ones I would agree.
Joshua D. Drake
>
> /D
>
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Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
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On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 02:54:51PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > Dave Page wrote: > >> I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again > >> saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the > >> lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about > >> postgres these days. > > > >> It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is > >> nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's > >> most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About > >> section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of > >> the Advantages page. > > > >> In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features > >> (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a > >> more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with > >> non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres. > > > >> So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show > >> people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses: > > > > May I humbly suggest than instead of the below, we remove the book of > > text that is /about with what you suggest? :) We really provide entirely > > too much info in about that could be better put in something like > > /about/extended or something. > > Yes, I'd be happy with that, but I still think it should be more > prominently linked form the front page. IF we can get some of the detail > there as well, even better - I'm really sick of hearing that we have no > replication!!! I think that sounds like a good idea - replace the page under /about with something better *and* stick a more prominent link on the frontpage. //Magnus
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Dave Page wrote: >> Joshua D. Drake wrote: >>> Dave Page wrote: > >>>> In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features >>>> (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a >>>> more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with >>>> non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres. >>>> So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show >>>> people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses: >>> May I humbly suggest than instead of the below, we remove the book of >>> text that is /about with what you suggest? :) We really provide entirely >>> too much info in about that could be better put in something like >>> /about/extended or something. >> Yes, I'd be happy with that, but I still think it should be more >> prominently linked form the front page. IF we can get some of the detail >> there as well, even better - I'm really sick of hearing that we have no >> replication!!! > > Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we > have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of > statement based ones I would agree. there is also https://developer.skype.com/SkypeGarage/DbProjects/SkyTools/Londiste Stefan
JD, > Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we > have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of > statement based ones I would agree. When did you OSS replicator? -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - --On Friday, August 10, 2007 08:47:55 -0700 Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote: > JD, > >> Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we >> have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of >> statement based ones I would agree. > > When did you OSS replicator? Along with that, has someone written a comparison of the various methods? Like, what does replicator give that Slony doesn't, or vice versa? Having various solutions provides options, but also creates confusion ... the argument is going to change from "PostgreSQL doesn't have replication" to "Oh my god, which on should I use?" >:) - ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFGvI2T4QvfyHIvDvMRAj6lAKC0yaxhXGpOFFD/lHM96ClHBrArlwCfbJIz I7Lcxu5pxbdmowdS0dWxHCI= =QVN9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Josh Berkus wrote:
> JD,
>
>> Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we
>> have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of
>> statement based ones I would agree.
>
> When did you OSS replicator?
Its coming, very, very soon.
Joshua D. Drake
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > --On Friday, August 10, 2007 08:47:55 -0700 Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> > wrote: > >> JD, > >>> Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we >>> have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of >>> statement based ones I would agree. >> When did you OSS replicator? > > Along with that, has someone written a comparison of the various methods? > Like, what does replicator give that Slony doesn't, or vice versa? Having > various solutions provides options, but also creates confusion ... the argument > is going to change from "PostgreSQL doesn't have replication" to "Oh my god, > which on should I use?" >:) It's on its way ;) > > > ---- > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) > Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org > Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 - ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.orgso that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly - -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ UNIQUE NOT NULL Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGvJPtATb/zqfZUUQRApHUAKCe2HOjDvYltAPV/ENCe6qBn7kKrQCeJBVo eg6k689cI/H0/dANkCUZ280= =FAH/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Friday 10 August 2007 07:47, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 12:22:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> > I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again
> > saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the
> > lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about
> > postgres these days.
> >
Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I find it
more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in
solution, which we do not have.
> > It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is
> > nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's
> > most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About
> > section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of
> > the Advantages page.
> >
> > In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features
> > (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a
> > more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with
> > non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres.
> >
<snip>
> > - Option 2 - Add a new horizontal panel under the announcement panel,
> > and above the featured user, containing a 'How can PostgreSQL help me'
> > link (or some other similar text), linking to a page bullet pointing the
> > technical reasons, including the replication info.
>
> This I like more. THe page itself would go under /about, I assume?
>
Do we really need a third page? You'd think that somewhere between the about
page and the advantages pages, we'd have room to fit in the word replication
in somewhere. Or since you were thinking a new page, why not write up a new
about page? Surely the current one could use updating.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On 8/10/07, Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> wrote: > Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I find it > more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in > solution, which we do not have. It seems people on IRC are always asking if we have replication, though typically it's expressed in language like "high-availability" and "failover", and typically answered with questions along the lines of "what do you need exactly?". Shortly thereafter in the ideal case, the original questioner realizes that the painless, linearly scalable multi-master replication he or she had in mind doesn't actually exist in *any* database and he or she didn't really need it anyway. I'd love to see a list of replication options along with pros and cons of each, links to relevant documentation, etc. Robert's original assertion, as I read it, is that people assume we have a replication option built in to the extent that one can just twiddle config options to make it work. Such a page as is being discussed would not only demonstrate that we *do* have replication, but it would make (more) obvious the fact that many of the neat things one can do with PostgreSQL require adding on some additional software, and further that adding modules is generally an easy thing to do. If we can get more people more comfortable rolling their own system by gluing packages together, by demonstrating that it's a very common practice and they won't end up with an unsupportable monster if they try, I believe we'll make a significant stride on the advocacy front. - Josh
On Fri, 2007-08-10 at 13:32 -0400, Robert Treat wrote: > On Friday 10 August 2007 07:47, Magnus Hagander wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 12:22:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > > > I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again > > > saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the > > > lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about > > > postgres these days. > > > > > Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I find it > more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in > solution, which we do not have. Every time I attend a trade show this is the #1 question: "Do you have replication?" We need to bear in mind that non-supporters of PostgreSQL are fairly vocal about the "fact" that we "dont support replication". -- Simon Riggs EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com
On Monday 13 August 2007 13:06, Simon Riggs wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-08-10 at 13:32 -0400, Robert Treat wrote:
> > On Friday 10 August 2007 07:47, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 12:22:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> > > > I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once
> > > > again saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except
> > > > for the lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread
> > > > FUD about postgres these days.
> >
> > Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I find
> > it more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in
> > solution, which we do not have.
>
> Every time I attend a trade show this is the #1 question:
> "Do you have replication?"
>
I'm not denying the frequency of the question, but I've gotten that question
from people who did know about things like slony.
> We need to bear in mind that non-supporters of PostgreSQL are fairly
> vocal about the "fact" that we "dont support replication".
And these people surely know about things like slony. So we need to be
cognizant of this distinction people have with replication that is built-in
vs add-on solutions.
*shrug*
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
> ------- Original Message ------- > From: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> > To: "Simon Riggs" <simon@2ndquadrant.com> > Sent: 13/08/07, 20:13:52 > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Features list > > I'm not denying the frequency of the question, but I've gotten that question > from people who did know about things like slony. Which is why I want to make it easy for them to find out about the options available. > > We need to bear in mind that non-supporters of PostgreSQL are fairly > > vocal about the "fact" that we "dont support replication". > > And these people surely know about things like slony. Do they? > So we need to be > cognizant of this distinction people have with replication that is built-in > vs add-on solutions. I think we need to do that in any case. /D
On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 15:13 -0400, Robert Treat wrote: > And these people surely know about things like slony. Well, I don't believe that 100% of people who ask about replication know about Slony, but then I accept it isn't 0% either. My guess is its somewhere in the range 5-50%. And I would bet many of those are fairly confused about what Slony is and what it can do. That still leaves lots of people without even the first clue about HA for PostgreSQL. -- Simon Riggs EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com
On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 18:06 +0100, Simon Riggs wrote: > > Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I find it > > more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in > > solution, which we do not have. > > Every time I attend a trade show this is the #1 question: > "Do you have replication?" > If Florian's work with readable PITR slaves succeeds, will that give everyone a better answer to that question? Regards,Jeff Davis
On Mon, August 13, 2007 11:34 pm, Jeff Davis wrote: > On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 18:06 +0100, Simon Riggs wrote: >> > Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I >> find it >> > more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in >> > solution, which we do not have. >> >> Every time I attend a trade show this is the #1 question: >> "Do you have replication?" >> > > If Florian's work with readable PITR slaves succeeds, will that give > everyone a better answer to that question? It'll certainly help, but my aim here is education on what we do have - namely a whole bunch of different add-on solutions which can work well in production. /D
Robert Treat schrieb: ... >> We need to bear in mind that non-supporters of PostgreSQL are fairly >> vocal about the "fact" that we "dont support replication". > > And these people surely know about things like slony. So we need to be > cognizant of this distinction people have with replication that is built-in > vs add-on solutions. Thats true as well as for example Oracle has also built in replication (well, actually its an add-on sold separately) but even this is rarely used. Instead many people seem to favour 3rd party solutions with a nicer price tag and better reputation. Things we absolutely have and most, if not all our competitors don't is for example fully transactional DDL. Regards Tino