Обсуждение: Can SCALE 6x resurrect LAPUG

At last year's SCALE Josh Berkus encouraged us attendees to restart the LA PostgreSQL users group.  Some of us showed
enthusiasmbut after the convention, I didn't hear a "peep" about it. 

Could an initiative to jump start the LAPUG be one of the goals set for this years SCALE?

I expect that there needs to be a "critical mass" of PostgreSQL zealots in the area in order to make a user group
self-sufficient.If there are not enough enterest from local booth volunteers, would it be in bad taste to invite
interestedbooth visitors to consider joining a PG user group? 

Regards,
Richard Broersma Jr.

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On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:26:45 -0800 (PST)
Richard Broersma Jr <rabroersma@yahoo.com> wrote:

> At last year's SCALE Josh Berkus encouraged us attendees to restart
> the LA PostgreSQL users group.  Some of us showed enthusiasm but
> after the convention, I didn't hear a "peep" about it.
> 
> Could an initiative to jump start the LAPUG be one of the goals set
> for this years SCALE?
> 
> I expect that there needs to be a "critical mass" of PostgreSQL
> zealots in the area in order to make a user group self-sufficient. If
> there are not enough enterest from local booth volunteers, would it
> be in bad taste to invite interested booth visitors to consider
> joining a PG user group?

Create a flyer we can hand out at the show for the local group that is
trying to get off the ground.

J


> 
> Regards,
> Richard Broersma Jr.
> 
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> 


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--- On Thu, 12/13/07, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:

> Create a flyer we can hand out at the show for the local
> group that is trying to get off the ground.

A flyer should be pretty easy to make. In addition to saying "Lets start LAPUG!", what kinds of contact information can
begiven to interested ones if they want to inquire for further information? I assume setting a date and place is far to
prematureat this point. 

Also, I see that instructions for a booths and press kits already exist.  Does a recipe like these exist for the
operationPostgreSQL user groups? 

Regards,
Richard Broersma Jr.

Speaking of which, is there a New York City Postgresql users group I've
just been unaware of?

Brian

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On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:02:13 -0500
Brian Hurt <bhurt@janestcapital.com> wrote:

> Speaking of which, is there a New York City Postgresql users group
> I've just been unaware of?

There is now. Where are you holding your next meeting?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



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On Dec 13, 2007 11:02 AM, Brian Hurt <bhurt@janestcapital.com> wrote:
> Speaking of which, is there a New York City Postgresql users group I've
> just been unaware of?
>
> Brian

I know of one person in the NY area that would be interested. He works
a lot with the TCL community and is full of energy.

I saw that Joshua just volunteered you, but we can provide some help
and coordination if you'd like to organize a few meetings.

-selena

--
Selena Deckelmann
PDXPUG - Portland PostgreSQL Users Group
http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx
http://www.chesnok.com/daily

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On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:02:13 -0500
Brian Hurt <bhurt@janestcapital.com> wrote:
 

Speaking of which, is there a New York City Postgresql users group
I've just been unaware of?   

There is now. Where are you holding your next meeting?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake 

--- On Thu, 12/13/07, Selena Deckelmann <selenamarie@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's not premature to pick a date and place!  Do you
> have contact information for any of the other interested people?

I believe so,  I can check with the guys that I meet at the last SCALE.  How would I go about arranging for a place to
meetat? 

> The key for us was contacting the University, communicating
> through other open source and database user groups, and
> being consistent!

Did you contact the university to arrange facilities to meet in, or did you post fliers to generate student interest in
theuser group?   


> We don't have that, but most of the user group leads
> watch and post to this mailing list. You can ask us
> questions any time!

I feel that a user group to be successful, the meetings would need to be meaningful for the attendees.  How one goes
aboutadding meaning to a user group, I am not too sure.  But I would imagine that showing up for free pizza and a
laptopwith PostgreSQL installed probably wouldn't be enough hold long term interest. 

> Also, some of my family is in LA - Alhambra - and I could
> come down and give a talk sometime for your group after SCALE.

Wow!, Thanks for offering the support.

> And if you're interested in creating a "user groups
> operating manual", I'd love to collaborate with you as
> LAPUG gets off the ground :)

Producing a operating manual would be something that I could do that would be a contribution to the community.  At the
veryleast I would learn what is involved for a operating Postgresql users group. 

Regards,
Richard Broersma Jr.

Selena, Richard,

> Producing a operating manual would be something that I could do that
> would be a contribution to the community.  At the very least I would
> learn what is involved for a operating Postgresql users group.

I'll contribute to this as well.  Let's start up a page on the developer
wiki?

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

--- On Thu, 12/13/07, Selena Deckelmann <selenamarie@gmail.com> wrote:

> Cool!  We'll keep in touch, and we can start putting
> something together
> after you have a meeting or two :)

Selena, Thanks for the information!  I am going to ponder over what you've posted and work on a couple of ideas.

Regards,
Richard Broersma Jr.

On Friday 14 December 2007 08:59, Derek Rodner wrote:
> EnterpriseDB is located in Edison, NJ, a short train ride from
> Manhattan.  We would be glad to help in any way that we can.  We would
> even like to host a meeting here in our offices.  We are a 3 minute walk
> from the Metro Park train station.
>
> Why don't you give me a call to discuss...

I suggest you get in contact with NYCBUG too, http://www.nycbug.org/

cheers

Robert

I love a Philly meeting.  I live about 30 minutes West of Philly.

 

Might make sense to create a Mid-Atlantic Postgres Users Group and have meetings hosted in different spots.

 

Off the top of my head, I can think of three locations:

EnterpriseDB – Edison, NJ

Gavin’s Office – New Hope, PA

Unisys – Malvern, PA

 

 

My office is about 20-25 minutes from the Trenton train station, don't know if that changes anything... I know for me to Penn station it's a two hour jaunt each way.

On 12/14/07, Brian Hurt <bhurt@janestcapital.com> wrote:

 
Derek Rodner wrote:

     
 

I love a Philly meeting.  I live about 30 minutes West of Philly.





Might make sense to create a Mid-Atlantic Postgres Users Group and have meetings hosted in different spots.





Off the top of my head, I can think of three locations:


EnterpriseDB – Edison, NJ


Gavin's Office – New Hope, PA


Unisys – Malvern, PA

Philly is more of an overnighter for me- it's hard to see how I could leave work one evening, get to Philly, attend a meeting, and get home (to Brooklyn) in any sort of reasonable time.

This isn't to say that a Philly Postgres meeting isn't a good idea- just that it's unlike I'll come (or organize it).

Brian

Selena Deckelmann wrote:
> Fliers can be helpful - and I think you'll get the most out of handing that,
> or a business card with information on it out at SCALE.  I can send you the
> template we used for the PDXPUG business cards. I just had them printed on
> card stock and cut at a local Kinkos.  They only cost about $25.
Selena,  could you send me the template for the PDXPUG business card.  I
would like to take a look. :-)

There is an existing LAPUG web page.  However, it is seriously out of
date.  Does anyone know what is required to gain access to this web
page?  I would like to spend time to have it updated.

For and update:

I've found another PG user and we are ready to being preparation for
LAPUG. =-O      By chance I contacted this individual after mailing the
existing LAPUG@postgresql.org mailing list.

I expect our first topic of discussion will be either temporal databased
implemented in PostgreSQL or a recap on the City of Garden Grove's use
of PostgreSQL.  We are shooting for our fist meeting 2 weeks after
SCALE.  I am working on using my companies facilities in Long Beach.

Thanks for the help!

Regards,
Richard Broersma Jr.

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On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:38:32 -0800
"Richard Broersma Jr." <rabroersma@yahoo.com> wrote:


> I expect our first topic of discussion will be either temporal
> databased implemented in PostgreSQL or a recap on the City of Garden
> Grove's use of PostgreSQL.  We are shooting for our fist meeting 2
> weeks after SCALE.  I am working on using my companies facilities in
> Long Beach.

BAH!!! Hold it the evening of Saturday (or Friday) of SCALE... then you
will have PostgreSQL people there :) and likely an elephant loving
company to sponsor the spirits.

Jsohua D. Drake


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--- On Tue, 12/18/07, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:

> > I expect our first topic of discussion will be either
> temporal
> > databased implemented in PostgreSQL or a recap on the
> City of Garden
> > Grove's use of PostgreSQL.  We are shooting for
> our fist meeting 2
> > weeks after SCALE.  I am working on using my companies
> facilities in
> > Long Beach.
>
> BAH!!! Hold it the evening of Saturday (or Friday) of
> SCALE... then you
> will have PostgreSQL people there :) and likely an elephant
> loving company to sponsor the spirits.
>
> Jsohua D. Drake

I am sure at this point we could probably make some sort of arrangement!

If we do this, should we make arrangements to have the meeting at a location some what closer to the SCALE Convention?
 

The companies building is about 15 to 20 minutes from the SCALE convention Center.  Also the location fairly
business/industrial(not too many nice restaurants around). 

Regards,
Richard Broersma Jr.

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On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:01:39 -0800 (PST)
Richard Broersma Jr <rabroersma@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > Jsohua D. Drake
>  
> I am sure at this point we could probably make some sort of
> arrangement! 
> If we do this, should we make arrangements to have the meeting at a
> location some what closer to the SCALE Convention? 

The term commonly used in the community is "stumbling distance".

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

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--- On Tue, 12/18/07, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:

> > If we do this, should we make arrangements to have the
> meeting at a
> > location some what closer to the SCALE Convention?
>
> The term commonly used in the community is "stumbling
> distance".

In that case, do you expect that any of the facilities at SCALE could be used after the convention hours?  This way the
peopleand chairs would already be in the right place. 

Regards,
Richard Broersma Jr.

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On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:10:23 -0800 (PST)
Richard Broersma Jr <rabroersma@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- On Tue, 12/18/07, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>  
> > > If we do this, should we make arrangements to have the
> > meeting at a
> > > location some what closer to the SCALE Convention? 
> > 
> > The term commonly used in the community is "stumbling
> > distance".
>  
> In that case, do you expect that any of the facilities at SCALE could
> be used after the convention hours?  This way the people and chairs
> would already be in the right place.

It's a Hotel, probably.

Joshua D. Drake

> 
> Regards,
> Richard Broersma Jr.
> 
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> 


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--- On Tue, 12/18/07, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:

> > In that case, do you expect that any of the facilities
> at SCALE could
> > be used after the convention hours?  This way the
> people and chairs
> > would already be in the right place.
>
> It's a Hotel, probably.

In that case, we'll tentatively make plans to have our first LAPUG meeting at SCALE.  I check with Noel to get his
inputalso. 

Regards,
Richard Broersma Jr.

Josh, Richard, Selena,

Looks like I'm going to SCALE ... they took my talk.  In that case, Wei-chen
may want to come to help at the booth, provided that she gets to do surveys.
Is that OK with people?  These are the same surveys from OSCON, they're not
terribly Sun-specific.

--Josh Berkus

On Dec 20, 2007 10:42 AM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote:
> Josh, Richard, Selena,
>
> Looks like I'm going to SCALE ... they took my talk.  In that case, Wei-chen
> may want to come to help at the booth, provided that she gets to do surveys.
> Is that OK with people?  These are the same surveys from OSCON, they're not
> terribly Sun-specific.

I'm fine with it!

-selena


--
Selena Deckelmann
PDXPUG - Portland PostgreSQL Users Group
http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx
http://www.chesnok.com/daily

Selena Deckelmann wrote:
> On Dec 20, 2007 10:42 AM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote:
>> Josh, Richard, Selena,
>>
>> Looks like I'm going to SCALE ... they took my talk.  In that case, Wei-chen
>> may want to come to help at the booth, provided that she gets to do surveys.
>> Is that OK with people?  These are the same surveys from OSCON, they're not
>> terribly Sun-specific.
>
> I'm fine with it!

Same rule applies though, we get copies. That was the agreement at OSCON.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

>
> -selena
>
>

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Selena Deckelmann wrote:
>> On Dec 20, 2007 10:42 AM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote:
>>> Josh, Richard, Selena,
>>>
>>> Looks like I'm going to SCALE ... they took my talk.  In that case,
>>> Wei-chen
>>> may want to come to help at the booth, provided that she gets to do
>>> surveys.
>>> Is that OK with people?  These are the same surveys from OSCON,
>>> they're not
>>> terribly Sun-specific.
>>
>> I'm fine with it!
>
> Same rule applies though, we get copies. That was the agreement at OSCON.
We'd like a copy of these surveys as well....

thanks
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>>
>> -selena
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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The Open Technology Group
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On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:29:09 -0500
Chander Ganesan <chander@otg-nc.com> wrote:


> >> I'm fine with it!
> >
> > Same rule applies though, we get copies. That was the agreement at
> > OSCON.
> We'd like a copy of these surveys as well....

I would note that this was a "community" we, not a "CMD" we. I would
only release any information from those surveys after complete
sanitation of any contact or identifying information.

The requirement that the community be given the information is so we
the community can learn more about our community. That is all.

I am not suggesting that Chander is trying to lead leech (I am not
suggesting this at all) but I did want to make it clear as to how the
information is procured, stored and shared.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

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> I would note that this was a "community" we, not a "CMD" we. I would
> only release any information from those surveys after complete
> sanitation of any contact or identifying information.
>
> The requirement that the community be given the information is so we
> the community can learn more about our community. That is all.
>
> I am not suggesting that Chander is trying to lead leech (I am not
> suggesting this at all) but I did want to make it clear as to how the
> information is procured, stored and shared.
>
I didn't expect there would be customer/contact information
there...rather, I expected there would be information that would help us
to determine the best direction/directions in which we can further
enhance our PG related offerings...

thanks


> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
> - --
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--
Chander Ganesan
The Open Technology Group
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
http://www.otg-nc.com

Joshua D. Drake escribió:
> Selena Deckelmann wrote:
>> On Dec 20, 2007 10:42 AM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote:
>>> Josh, Richard, Selena,
>>>
>>> Looks like I'm going to SCALE ... they took my talk.  In that case, Wei-chen
>>> may want to come to help at the booth, provided that she gets to do surveys.
>>> Is that OK with people?  These are the same surveys from OSCON, they're not
>>> terribly Sun-specific.
>>
>> I'm fine with it!
>
> Same rule applies though, we get copies. That was the agreement at OSCON.

So are Prerna's survey results from OSCON available somewhere?

--
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake escribió:
>> Selena Deckelmann wrote:
>>> On Dec 20, 2007 10:42 AM, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote:
>>>> Josh, Richard, Selena,
>>>>
>>>> Looks like I'm going to SCALE ... they took my talk.  In that case, Wei-chen
>>>> may want to come to help at the booth, provided that she gets to do surveys.
>>>> Is that OK with people?  These are the same surveys from OSCON, they're not
>>>> terribly Sun-specific.
>>> I'm fine with it!
>> Same rule applies though, we get copies. That was the agreement at OSCON.
>
> So are Prerna's survey results from OSCON available somewhere?
>

I have to scan them in but yes, she did follow through and mail them.

Joshua D. Drake

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> In that case, do you expect that any of the facilities at SCALE could
>> be used after the convention hours?  This way the people and chairs
>> would already be in the right place.
>>
>
> It's a Hotel, probably.
>
Josh,

Is there any one I should contact to confirm if we can reserve a room
for the LAPUG meeting after the conclusion of Saturday's convention?

Regards,
Richard Broersma Jr.

New Yorkers,

I'll be in NYC January 22-24.   Maybe we could have some kind of gathering
during that week?  I'd love to see at least some of you.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

Josh Berkus wrote:

>New Yorkers,
>
>I'll be in NYC January 22-24.   Maybe we could have some kind of gathering
>during that week?  I'd love to see at least some of you.
>
>
>
Any particular night good?

Brian

New Yorkers,

I'll be in NYC January 22-24.   Maybe we could have some kind of gathering
during that week?  I'd love to see at least some of you.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

Josh Berkus wrote:
> New Yorkers,
>
> I'll be in NYC January 22-24.   Maybe we could have some kind of gathering
> during that week?  I'd love to see at least some of you.
>
>
I'll be in town as well from the 22-24th (leaving 24th evening), nearby
grand central...so let me know if you plan something and I'll plan to
attend, and probably drag along a customer or two...

--
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
919-463-0999/877-258-8987
http://www.otg-nc.com

> Any particular night good?
How about Tuesday or Wednesday night?

thanks

chander
>
> Brian
>
>
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Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
919-463-0999/877-258-8987
http://www.otg-nc.com

Gavin M. Roy wrote:
> Tuesday night work for everyone?
Works for me
>
> Gavin
>
> On 1/14/08, *Chander Ganesan* < chander@otg-nc.com
> <mailto:chander@otg-nc.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     > Any particular night good?
>     How about Tuesday or Wednesday night?
>
>     thanks
>
>     chander
>     >
>     > Brian
>     >
>     >
>     > ---------------------------(end of
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>
>
>     --
>     Chander Ganesan
>     Open Technology Group, Inc.
>     One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
>     Morrisville, NC  27560
>     919-463-0999/877-258-8987
>     http://www.otg-nc.com
>
>
>


--
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
919-463-0999/877-258-8987
http://www.otg-nc.com

Chander Ganesan wrote:
> Gavin M. Roy wrote:
>> Tuesday night work for everyone?
> Works for me

Hmmm, I have a conflict.  I'll see if I can reschedule it.

Chander and I are staying near Grand Central.

--Josh

All,

OK, I'm good for this.  Appointment rescheduled.

So now we need a local to find a meeting place.  Brian?

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

Folks,

So, we still need a location for Tuesday.   We can use EnterpriseDB, but
they're an hour out of town in NJ.  I'd prefer something in NYC.

Suggestions anyone?

--Josh

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On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:35:14 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote:

> Folks,
> 
> So, we still need a location for Tuesday.   We can use EnterpriseDB,
> but they're an hour out of town in NJ.  I'd prefer something in NYC.
> 
> Suggestions anyone?

Why not just hit planet hollywood or the hard rock or something?

> 
> --Josh
> 
> ---------------------------(end of
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> extensive FAQ?
> 
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> 


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JD,

>> Suggestions anyone?
>
> Why not just hit planet hollywood or the hard rock or something?

Because we want to be able to hear as well as see each other.  Bars make
collosally bad places for UG meetings, since nobody can hear anyone else.

--Josh

On Tue, 2008-01-15 at 12:39 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Because we want to be able to hear as well as see each other.  Bars make
> collosally bad places for UG meetings, since nobody can hear anyone else.

That depends on the bar -- we had many successful meetings of the Sydney
PUG at a pub. We just talked to the manager of the pub beforehand to
arrange for some space in the back that was relatively quiet.

-Neil

Josh Berkus wrote:

> JD,
>
>>> Suggestions anyone?
>>
>>
>> Why not just hit planet hollywood or the hard rock or something?
>
>
> Because we want to be able to hear as well as see each other.  Bars
> make collosally bad places for UG meetings, since nobody can hear
> anyone else.
>
> --Josh
>
>
Can I recommend the Skylight diner?  I've had other meetups there, and
for small to medium sized meetups (up to say 20 or so people) it's a
good place.  Quiet, so we can hear each other, they have a nice back
area that we can sit in and get lots of tables together, and it's decent
diner food, which means that most people can find something there
they'll eat and it doesn't cost that much.

It's address is:

Skylight Diner
402 W 34th St.
Between 9th and Dyer (actually just one door from the intersection of
9th Ave and 34th St)
New York, NY

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Skylight+Diner&near=New+York,+NY&ie=UTF8&ll=40.752686,-73.997211&spn=0.011574,0.013776&z=16&om=1

It's about a block from Penn Station, so it's easy to get to by subway-
take the A, C, E, 1, 2, 3, B, D, F, N, Q, R, V, W to 34th St, or the
Shuttle from Grand Central.

For those new to New York, I'd like to point out www.hopstop.com, as an
easy way to figure out how to get from point a to point b.

Brian

Brian,

> Can I recommend the Skylight diner?

Sounds great!  Can you set it up?  7:30pm on Tuesday?

Will I be able to do a presentation there (e.g convenient wall for
projector)?

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

Brian Hurt wrote:
> Josh Berkus wrote:
>
>> JD,
>>
>>>> Suggestions anyone?
>>>
>>>
>>> Why not just hit planet hollywood or the hard rock or something?
>>
>>
>> Because we want to be able to hear as well as see each other.  Bars
>> make collosally bad places for UG meetings, since nobody can hear
>> anyone else.
>>
>> --Josh
>>
>>
> Can I recommend the Skylight diner?  I've had other meetups there, and
> for small to medium sized meetups (up to say 20 or so people) it's a
> good place.  Quiet, so we can hear each other, they have a nice back
> area that we can sit in and get lots of tables together, and it's
> decent diner food, which means that most people can find something
> there they'll eat and it doesn't cost that much.
>
> It's address is:
>
> Skylight Diner
> 402 W 34th St.
> Between 9th and Dyer (actually just one door from the intersection of
> 9th Ave and 34th St)
> New York, NY
>
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Skylight+Diner&near=New+York,+NY&ie=UTF8&ll=40.752686,-73.997211&spn=0.011574,0.013776&z=16&om=1

>
>
> It's about a block from Penn Station, so it's easy to get to by
> subway- take the A, C, E, 1, 2, 3, B, D, F, N, Q, R, V, W to 34th St,
> or the Shuttle from Grand Central.
>
> For those new to New York, I'd like to point out www.hopstop.com, as
> an easy way to figure out how to get from point a to point b.
+1

Can we get a head count for reservations?  Or do they not do reservations?

chander
>
> Brian


--
Chander Ganesan
The Open Technology Group
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
Phone: 877-258-8987/919-463-0999
http://www.otg-nc.com

Brian,
 

Can I recommend the Skylight diner?    

Sounds great!  Can you set it up?  7:30pm on Tuesday?

Will I be able to do a presentation there (e.g convenient wall for 
projector)?
 

Brian,

> Not really- I didn't realize we were doing a presentation.
>
> Not sure where a good place to do a presentation is.  Public libraries
> around here close apx. 8PM, so they're not a good choice.

Well, the Skylight is the best idea we've had.   Let's plan on it, and bill
it as a "PostgreSQL 8.3 Q&A".

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco